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 Post subject: Re: Ruby?...
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:23 pm 
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Stephen Challener wrote:
Solomon wrote:
They determined right away that these are not natural rubies.

No, they just made a guess based on very limited evidence. Unless they collected some real data about the stone they haven't seen anything we haven't--you can't identify a faceted stone like this just by looking at it. I think John had in mind a jeweler who might do some basic gemological tests. Jewelers can vary in knowledge from being full-blown gemologists with their own lab to someone who knows most of the birthstones.


You are right of course, but there is some physical evidence which suggests they are not real rubies like their color which do not completely point them as rubies plus the way they are embedded in the earings. (Look at the pictures.) Some opinions here also suggested they are garnet\synthetic rubies plus what I heard at the jewelry store just doesn't justify spending the $ for serious checking (And serious checking cost lots of $...)
as Barbra said - "a microscope is not enough"
When you look at the pictures, your expert's opinion is that it worth hundreds of dollars of deeper checking?


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 Post subject: Re: Ruby?...
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:20 am 
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For me, a quick and wise look with a loupe and a dichroscope should be enough, and wouldn't cost that much.


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 Post subject: Re: Ruby?...
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:08 pm 
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Yeah, separating garnet and ruby is trivial with relatively inexpensive tools. Even a full blown gia lab report wouldnt be insanely expensive, though it would liekly kot be warranted before doing some basic and less expensive tests.

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 Post subject: Re: Ruby?...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:23 am 
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Here's how the blue sapphire pin looks like under UV light.
(the one they said in the jewelry shop is synthetic)
shouldn't the synthetic glow like hell?...
no glowing here...
no glowing no spots
what do you think?
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 Post subject: Re: Ruby?...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:56 pm 
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I think you should drop in on a gemologist and have a chat. Most would make these separations for you at minimal cost or for free. Online identification could be costly even if it is free and amusing. Many gemologists would like to be entertained in person.

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 Post subject: Re: Ruby?...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:06 pm 
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Solomon, why should synthetic sapphire glow like hell?
Spots of what?


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 Post subject: Re: Ruby?...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:30 am 
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Barbra Voltaire wrote:
Solomon, why should synthetic sapphire glow like hell?
Spots of what?


Hi,Barbra.
i am Solomon brother... the one who examine the stone and took the pictures.
based on this "FREE" article- http://www.ruby-sapphire.com/heat_seeke ... scence.htm
"Sapphire generally shows no fluorescence to visible light. But that changes if we expose it to short-wave UV. This is most clearly seen in synthetic colorless sapphire,which displays a bluish white (‘chalky’) emission in the range of 410–420 nm.
blue fluorescence in synthetic sapphire has been observed at least since 1948. While it has been generally ignored in the gemological literature, it has been the subject of numerous scientific papers (c.f. Evans, 1994).
Evans surmised after reviewing the data that the 410–420 nm fluorescent peak was due to Ti4+ charge-transfer transition. That was later confirmed by Wong, et al. (1995a and 1995b). Isolated Ti4+ ions, or Ti–Al vacancy pairs produce this fluorescence.
The Ti4+ charge-transfer transition in corundum is so strong and the efficiency so high that the fluorescence is easily observed by eye at even just 1 ppm Ti4+. Most of the synthetic sapphire in the market contains at least one ppm of Ti4+ from the Al2O3 starting material, if not more, and thus fluoresces. The fluorescence peaks at about 415 nm at very low Ti4+ concentrations, but as the concentration increases, the fluorescent band broadens and the peak shifts to as high as 460 or 480 nm, making the fluorescence appear more greenish-blue or whitish-blue.
Why this chalky fluorescence occurs relates to the growth temperature and Ti4+ concentrations relative to other impurities. In synthetic corundums, the high growth temperatures and high Ti4+ concentrations produce the chalky fluorescence. In certain heat-treated sapphires with low Fe levels (such as those from Sri Lanka), high-temperature heat treatment creates similar conditions to the synthetic. Thus the chalky fluorescence. "

I hope this answer your question 8)
cheers.
Dor.


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 Post subject: Re: Ruby?...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:48 am 
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Barbra Voltaire wrote:
Solomon, why should synthetic sapphire glow like hell?
Spots of what?

I don't know Barbra, I'm just passing my brother's words...
He said a synthetic should glow as they are grown at a higher temperature or something (I really don't have a clue).
spots as evidence of heating (so none of these)


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 Post subject: Re: Ruby?...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:52 pm 
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Morning Solomon and Dor! Are you sure you are using Short Wave UV for your experiment?
I suspect it IS LWUV.

Many natural sapphires fluoresce under LWUV. It depends on the absence of iron in their structure. Iron inhibits fluorescence under LWUV.

Most synthetic sapphires are flame fusion synthetics.
With magnification you should be able to see curved growth lines.
Image


Further reading:
https://www.gia.edu/gems-gemology/FA13- ... c-sapphire


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 Post subject: Re: Ruby?...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:56 pm 
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Barbra Voltaire wrote:
Morning Solomon and Dor! Are you sure you are using Short Wave UV for your experiment?
I suspect it IS LWUV.

Many natural sapphires fluoresce under LWUV. It depends on the absence of iron in their structure. Iron inhibits fluorescence under LWUV.

Most synthetic sapphires are flame fusion synthetics.
With magnification you should be able to see curved growth lines.
Image


Further reading:
https://www.gia.edu/gems-gemology/FA13- ... c-sapphire


we are not 100% sure. it dosent say on the light bulb.. :|
but it does have a warning not to use it on animles,eys,skin etc...
as i know,short wave uv is dengerus,so i figure...
we do need to buy a better optics,its very hard to identify anything with the tools we have here.


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 Post subject: Re: Ruby?...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:11 pm 
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Barbra Voltaire wrote:

Many natural sapphires fluoresce under LWUV. It depends on the absence of iron in their structure. Iron inhibits fluorescence under LWUV.



generally speaking,this is not correct as you can see here:
(only true for ceylon blue color)


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 Post subject: Re: Ruby?...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:39 pm 
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Listen Dor, I didn't just roll off a turnip truck. I am a credentialed gemologist/geologist/appraiser who has been actively employed in the industry identifying gems for 40+ years.

I know that some natural blue sapphires fluoresce with LWUV.....RED! It is not theory nor speculation, it is my personal experience. If you thoroughly read my post, you will see it is a function of high Cr content and lack of Fe content.

Both your brother and now you have been given several solid ideas for the positive ID of your unknowns.....specifically, bring them to a gemologist who can test them with tools they understand how to use.

I have little patience for those who post incorrect information on bandwidth I pay for.


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 Post subject: Re: Ruby?...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:54 pm 
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Barbra Voltaire wrote:
Listen Dor, I didn't just roll off a turnip truck. I am a credentialed gemologist/geologist/appraiser who has been actively employed in the industry identifying gems for 40+ years.

I know that some natural blue sapphires fluoresce with LWUV.....RED! It is not theory nor speculation, it is my personal experience. If you thoroughly read my post, you will see it is a function of high Cr content and lack of Fe content.

Both your brother and now you have been given several solid ideas for the positive ID of your unknowns.....specifically, bring them to a gemologist who can test them with tools they understand how to use.

I have little patience for those who post incorrect information on bandwidth I pay for.


i know that you are an expert. thats why i am trying to underatnd
why you asked "why should synthetic sapphire glow like hell?"
its suppose to be obvious that they are.
or maybe i am worng about that also, ha? 8) :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Ruby?...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:42 pm 
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What you are not clear on is the profoundly different reaction stones can have when viewed under SW or LW ultraviolet.
As I mentioned, it is likely the light you are using is a variety of LWUV.

Review this article and note, with the exception of the emerald, most reactions are seen with SWUV.
http://www.ruby-sapphire.com/heat_seeke ... scence.htm

See if you can find a unit like this locally:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gemstone-UV-Li ... 0582216640


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 Post subject: Re: Ruby?...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:22 am 
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Barbra Voltaire wrote:
What you are not clear on is the profoundly different reaction stones can have when viewed under SW or LW ultraviolet.
As I mentioned, it is likely the light you are using is a variety of LWUV.

Review this article and note, with the exception of the emerald, most reactions are seen with SWUV.
http://www.ruby-sapphire.com/heat_seeke ... scence.htm

See if you can find a unit like this locally:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gemstone-UV-Li ... 0582216640



Hope this kit will be enough. http://vi.vipr.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAP ... cureDesc=0


Last edited by Dor on Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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