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 Post subject: advanced courses??
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:02 pm 
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hi folks,

as all the people who took gemmo courses know very well, the more recent techniques used in the laboratories are not covered atall. I would be curious to know if you would like to see this "gap" filled or do you think some techniques and ID methods should be leaved to lab only.

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albé

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 Post subject: Re: advanced courses??
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:24 pm 
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I would think you'd want to at least mention new techniques and tools (like the Gemmo Raman!). Personally, I can't imagine why any student would not want a full toolkit of ways to ID stones.

I can see not teaching ON something like a Gemmo Raman--I get the impression it'd be like teaching on a calculator before they know how to add columns of numbers.

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 Post subject: Re: advanced courses??
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:49 pm 
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I sure wish there was a class I could take on understanding advanced instruments.

When I was recently at the GIA's lab in Carlsbad, I noticed an impressive assortment of instrumentation.
Employees there said they wanted to keep their arsenal proprietary, so that clever scammers couldn't get an upper hand on their methods and capabilities. I couldn't even find out the names of the instruments they used.

Fair enough. Magicians don't like to reveal their tricks.

This philosophy makes it essential that the GIA employ earth scientists with advanced degrees in their colored stone lab, not gemologists, to operate and fully understand the instrumentation.

Sooooo.....what are the options for a gemmo who wants to use the latest tools? Who should teach these courses?
(We know that there can be tragic mistakes made when an individual does not know how to properly interpret results from their instruments.)

I propose that the manufacturers of advanced instruments, made specifically for the gemologist, offer an in depth course on their proper use and interpretation. Perhaps an Intensive Day Lab (or two) might be an idea.

I, for one, would definitely pay for such an opportunity.


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 Post subject: Re: advanced courses??
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:44 pm 
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Barbra Voltaire wrote:
I propose that the manufacturers of advanced instruments, made specifically for the gemologist, offer an in depth course on their proper use and interpretation. Perhaps an Intensive Day Lab (or two) might be an idea.

I, for one, would definitely pay for such an opportunity.

And, if they made the training relatively cheap, it'd be an excellent promotion opportunity for the equipment. Then they'd sell more, and we'd all benefit from more gemmo tools out there*!

--Eric

*and more workarounds for synthetics from the con artists ;)

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 Post subject: Re: advanced courses??
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:15 am 
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Barbra Voltaire wrote:
This philosophy makes it essential that the GIA employ earth scientists with advanced degrees in their colored stone lab, not gemologists, to operate and fully understand the instrumentation.


we are not talking about researchers here, we are talking about users of the instruments. methink time has come for gemmoeducation to jump to the next level, if you have a look to the majority of the courses you wouldn't see any significative change in last 20 yrs or more about gemmotools and their use.......of course it even depends by who provide for the courses, maybe they don't wanna create new gemmologists but only conscious jewelers......... :roll:

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Sooooo.....what are the options for a gemmo who wants to use the latest tools? Who should teach these courses?
(We know that there can be tragic mistakes made when an individual does not know how to properly interpret results from their instruments.)


maybe not everyone knows that SSEF provides for Expert courses, i think that should be the right way to follow even by others to give the optional opportunity of having a more in deep knowledge about new techniques. Maybe not all the "gemmologists" would be interested in having that (i know there are folks interested only in having their fancy piece of paper hanged on the wall :? ) but for what i know and read, there are definitely a number of folks who would be happy to join...........

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I propose that the manufacturers of advanced instruments, made specifically for the gemologist, offer an in depth course on their proper use and interpretation. Perhaps an Intensive Day Lab (or two) might be an idea.

I, for one, would definitely pay for such an opportunity.


yeah, that is a good idea but the topic was more related to what the gemmo school should do about that.....

ciao
albé

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 Post subject: Re: advanced courses??
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:38 am 
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I, personally, do not have the funds to go and take a course with SSEF.

As I said, the GIA does not seem to be willing to train folks with sophisticated spectrographic tools because it would make them loose what they believe to be the upper hand.
Both GIA and Gem-A, while teaching solid fundementals, have had the same curriculum for decades, albeit, their presentation has improved.

I think we have to accept that they are not going to rewrite their courses to incorporate instrumentation that they aren't selling. Note, SSEF sells product!

I'm quite serious that I fell the sellers of these instruments should offer an extensive presentation on their precise use and interpretation.

Perhaps, a series of one hour modules could be filmed for download. Incorporating precisely how to achieve best result for specific circumstances and then how to determine the entire meaning of the results the instrument is producing. One could make the classes available, for a fee, to those who have invested in the instrumentation.

My 2¢


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 Post subject: Re: advanced courses??
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:35 pm 
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I reckon the best way would be to study material sciences at your local university. Commercial education providers cannot match the budget universities have for toys, are often geared towards selling courses so dumb things down and you walk away with a proper degree and a proper scientific mindset. :D

I think I'm going here. Got my B.Ed. lurking at me at the moment, one more assignment and final assessment to go (one of the reasons for my current absence here, I'll be back soon)


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 Post subject: Re: advanced courses??
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:33 pm 
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Most important thing about advanced courses is advanced Instruments,
without them the course is useless unless you have access or own them.
from my experience many of Advanced Gemological Instruments need to be properly tuned and calibrated in order to get correct result, also using good references & database is important too.
this is the main the reason there is no general teaching for advanced courses cause each device and model works different, classical tests are different story.

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 Post subject: Re: advanced courses??
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 3:33 am 
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I think i should clarify a bit what i meant by starting this thread.
we ALL know the instruments nowadays used i the labs for gem analysis are not anymore the ones currently covered in gemmological courses. this is a fact. with the development of all the new treatments AND synthetics techniques a group of "new" instruments became unavoidable part of many LAB's standard arsenal, not only of the big ones anymore. Likely the microscope is the one which remained almost the same and still remains the "connection" between two worlds (LABs and common gemmos) which have very few in common by now. Let's try to read whatever article from G&G, let's go to a gemmo symposium or conference, there will be ALWAYS the fatal moment where you start to read or hear something like "one phonon region", "Raman fingerprint" et als...........usually this is the point where the common gemmo starts to feel lost, and i'm saying that from personal experience...............many of us will start to dig for info (I did and still doing that), googling like mad and some of us could be succesfull in finding something suitable to understand......................what they wouldn't find is a source of gemmo-related info starting from zero in explaining those techniques.....
Now, I'm not related or connected to SSEF in ANY way, i didn't took their courses but i know folks who did. the Expert Courses i linked above are something really spot on and tailored for the gemmologists who want to fill the gap.
you wouldn't became an expert for sure in the use of the "advanced " instruments after a one week of course where: FT-IR, UV-Vis-NIR, Raman/PL, LIBS, EDXRF, EDS and X-ray are discussed..........LOL...............BUT, for sure you will be taught what they are, principle of work, what they are used for in our field.
This is exactly what i would like to have from the other major education institutes, a course where the principle of use, and the gemmological applications of such instruments would be covered. Of course having the opportunity to put your hands and operate on the real instruments (as in the SSEF courses) would be the best, but i think that even the simple theory would be for sure better than nothing, which is actually what is provided today by the major players in gemmo education.
@Farshid, a Raman is a Raman, you can have different brands, prices, setups but you will ALWAYS find the diamond peak at the same place no matter which Raman you are using to scan your stone and EVERYTIME i talk with someone who is familiar with the technique, he really understands what i'm talking about, the same is valid for all the other alphabet soup "advanced" gears............if you are familiar with them (i mean, you know what they are, what they provide for and which are the applications for our field) you wouldn't have ANY difficulty to understand.

ciao
albé

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 Post subject: Re: advanced courses??
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:02 am 
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I suspect that GIA's hesitation may be the liability for cost of the instrumentation, and the potential for mishandling when you are letting novices tinker with them. Not the least of which is checking to see if the laser is ON without goggles.
From a personal perspective, I don't let folks use my tools that may be damaged by mishandling.
Feel free to mess with my scope, the OPL thermal diamond tester, the Metler and the polariscope, but if you come within 5 feet of my refractometer's hemicylinder or the GemmoRaman, you will die.


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 Post subject: Re: advanced courses??
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:30 am 
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Barbra Voltaire wrote:
... if you come within 5 feet of my refractometer's hemicylinder or the GemmoRaman, you will die.

Image
[-o<

@Alberto
you are right mate, Raman and FTIR are better instruments
some instruments like digital Spectrometers need calibration with different light source, or very expensive...

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