January 24 Through February 4—TUCSON, ARIZONA: Annual show
Welcome to the GemologyOnline.com Forum
A non-profit Forum for the exchange of gemological ideas
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:31 am

All times are UTC - 4 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Tourmaline that rivals the price of Alexandrite.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:35 pm 
Offline
Valued Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:47 pm
Posts: 147
Location: Aiken SC
Hi everyone,

Continuing on with Tourmaline. What rare Tourmaline is now exceeding the price of Alexandrite per carat? (No hint on this one!)

_________________
Michael Ph.D. C.G.A.

Aiken, SC

"The fear of God is the beginning of Wisdom"
King Solomon


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:40 pm 
Offline
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:45 am
Posts: 1107
Location: Cape Elizabeth, Maine
Paraiba?


Last edited by Snizzy on Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:29 pm 
Offline
Platinum Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:20 am
Posts: 2756
Location: Southern California, U.S.A.
Yes, but "Paraiba" from where: Paraiba, Brazil; Nigeria or Mozambique? They all produce cuprous tourmalines that vary in price and quality but the AGTA says they can all be 'officially' called "Paraiba" in trade. Of course that depends on how "official" one considers the AGTA to be in such matters.

My understanding is that some of the Mozambique "Paraiba" presently being marketed does not need heat treatment but I can't recall where I read that. I could probably look it up if anyone's interested.

The new canary yellow tourmaline from Malawi is also selling at a big price premium for top-end stones but below Paraiba.

ROM


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:40 am 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:42 pm
Posts: 2846
Location: Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam
That would be the Paraiba from Brazil, no doubt. From what I have seen, the Nigerian stuff doesn't quite have the same pizzazz. Haven't seen the Mozambique variety, although I suspect that if it were as good as the Brazilian Paraiba, there would be more buzz about it going on.

Isn't calling cuprite tourmaline from other than Paraiba "Paraiba" kind of like calling sparkling wine from anywhere but the Champagne region of France "Champagne"? It's not, and that always kind of smacks of trying to piggyback on the reputation of something else that is deservedly the "reference" to which the others are compared.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:08 am 
Offline
Platinum Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:20 am
Posts: 2756
Location: Southern California, U.S.A.
Africanuck:

Many (including me) feel as you do about the Paraiba name. I was merely reporting a fact. AGTA is essentially a marketing organization that's responsible to the membership which pays the bills. But its policy decisions carry a lot of weight in the broader colored gem community.

Interestingly, a large Brazilian dealer I'm familiar with carries a lot of Nigerian cuprous tourmaline and sells it under the Paraiba name. Selling gems from one country under the name of another seems to be a tradition in the colored stone trade. Australian sapphire is sold as Thai or Cambodian; Brazilian emerald is sold as Colombian; Madagascan sapphire is sold as Sri Lankan; Brazilian precious opal is sold as Australian and so on. The 'source' with the best reputation and highest prices attracts similar gems from other places.

I don't say it's right but it's human nature and it happens.

ROM


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:48 am 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:42 pm
Posts: 2846
Location: Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam
ROM,

I know it happens, it's just one of my personal pet peeves. I kind of look at it as "any product that is good enough will have it's own reputation". I think that holds true for just about anything.

How many famous singers got famous because "they sound like XXX"? Probably none. Most of those who make it big sound distinctively like themselves and no one else...

I think that it does a great disservice to the mining areas, many of which may well produce exceptional stones that rival the "reference", to pass the best off as something else, rather than trumpeting to the world that XXX area is producing these XXX amazing stones.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:48 am 
Offline
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:44 pm
Posts: 1025
ROM wrote:
... the AGTA says they can all be 'officially' called "Paraiba" in trade. Of course that depends on how "official" one considers the AGTA to be in such matters.

My understanding is that some of the Mozambique "Paraiba" presently being marketed does not need heat treatment but I can't recall where I read that. I could probably look it up if anyone's interested.



Well, HELL! I thought the AGTA was a better organization than that! Concerned members of AGTA might take a look at it's charter. I was not aware that AGTA had already approved trade usage of the term. Please use your most effective method of persuasion to insist that AGTA retract its position. Many prominent and REPUTABLE AGTA members are doing so even now, and many of those do not regularly deal in Brazilian goods. I accuse all who endorse the changed usage as crooks, or of questionable scruples, ignorant, anti-consumer, or so uninformed that they should retract and reconsider their position.

Such a saga as the discovery of Paraiba ALONE would merit distinction in any other industry. The term "Pariaba" should be sacrosanct. Indeed, "Pariaba" in established trade usage referred to Brazillian goods alone, and the term was, as often as not, simply "Paraiba" , "not Pariaba Tourmaline". My first brush with "Paraiba" NOT refering to Brazillian goods was an attempt to defraud me by selling me Nigerian goods for Brazillina prices. Subsequently, misdirection and fraud has been the ONLY intent that I have seen when the term is used for non-Brazillian goods. The fraud now is mostly directed at the consumer. AGTA and ALL their members know this! How could they morally approve trade usage for other stuff!

If my limited collection is representative, the Paraiba is generally far superior to Nigerian goods. I have no Mozambique goods, but, IMHO, what I have seen falls far short of the quality of Paraiba or Nigerian Stones. The color is a lightly saturated GY, with shifting on the axies to othe light colors.

Well, enough of this rant. AGTA did no good.

_________________
Ux4 ... Mo' later

John M. Huff
CenSat Enterprises


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:18 am 
Offline
Valued Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:21 am
Posts: 426
Location: New York City
Yeah, I think they dropped the ball on that one. Ur right, the finest Brazilian is unrivaled. It's got that neon pop. AGTA does Paraiba with country of origin, so we can ask for that.

My personal pet peeve is the way the term Padaparadscha is thrown around. I've never seen a stone that tested Pad that wasn't from Ceylon.

I asked if anyone had a non Ceylon stone test Pad somewhere on the board but I forgot where. I'd sure like to know and see the proof. I'm form Missouri as it were

Anyway, dealers that I know are sticklers on this one. Sri Lanka only. Maybe I need to get an update. Except the guys with African goods etc. that want their goods to be Pads but I never saw any certed. Talk about a trade name!

=Steve

lembeckgems@msn.com


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:33 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:22 pm
Posts: 21602
Location: San Francisco
Here you go Steve:
http://gemologyonline.com/Forum/phpBB2/ ... dparadscha


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Tourmaline that rivals the price of Alexandrite.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:35 pm 
Offline
Platinum Member

Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:47 pm
Posts: 2505
Location: Eastern Europe
gem doc wrote:
Hi everyone,

Continuing on with Tourmaline. What rare Tourmaline is now exceeding the price of Alexandrite per carat? (No hint on this one!)



Paraiba sounds obvious (well, the 'good' ones, whatever that means in light of the discussion around the name etc.). Too obvious? Is this about something new? I haven't heard about fine green/red tourmaline color changers in a long while... especially none that might break the bank!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:41 pm 
Offline
Platinum Member

Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:42 pm
Posts: 2591
Actually there is an article in the latest JofG on reverse alexandrite effect in tourmaline from Mozambique.
Purple in daylight, green in incandescent light.

Still need to read that.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:57 pm 
Offline
Platinum Member

Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:47 pm
Posts: 2505
Location: Eastern Europe
Doos wrote:
Actually there is an article in the latest JofG on reverse alexandrite effect in tourmaline from Mozambique. Purple in daylight, green in incandescent light.



That so fits the bill here! Any trace online? :) It can wait until next year, of course ...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Where is "Paraiba?"
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:31 am 
Offline
Valued Contributor

Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:21 pm
Posts: 120
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Has anyone ever had a client/customer come to you and asked about a "water sapphire?" Well, here we go again with misnomers. "Water sapphire" is the common misnomer for Iolite. Kind of like the same thing with "Paraiba" tourmaline. Last time I checked there wasn't ANY locality on the African continent called "Paraiba." Everyone here seems to be in agreement that the SIMILAR but not quite OMG tourmalines from Africa are attractive, but not quite the "real deal," so to speak. And, they aren't. By definition, I would think. The locality of Paraiba in Brazil has come to be associated with top-grade quality, and everything else seems to fall a little short. So, I don't think the dealers can get away to misrepesenting their goods unless we let them in terms of origin. Expect to see a lot of "Paraiba" at the JCK show here in June. How much genuinely from Brazil remains to be seen.

http://graduategemologist.blogspot.com

_________________
Best Regards From,
Tom Goodwin, G.G.

"Always do the right thing. Your friends will be gratified and your enemies amazed." -Mark Twain


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:33 am 
Offline
Platinum Member

Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:02 pm
Posts: 2646
Dang Tom,
All that bling and money on the Las Vegas strip and you're the only G.G. ? I don't think I'd be giving away that secret. Now that you've disclosed this, a ten year vacation to Sin City is sounding very tempting.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:56 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:22 pm
Posts: 21602
Location: San Francisco
Perhaps we can organize a group trip. :wink:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 4 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Gemology Style ported to phpBB3 by Christian Bullock