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 Post subject: Tourmaline that rivals the price of Alexandrite.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:35 pm 
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Hi everyone,

Continuing on with Tourmaline. What rare Tourmaline is now exceeding the price of Alexandrite per carat? (No hint on this one!)

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:40 pm 
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Paraiba?


Last edited by Snizzy on Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:29 pm 
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Yes, but "Paraiba" from where: Paraiba, Brazil; Nigeria or Mozambique? They all produce cuprous tourmalines that vary in price and quality but the AGTA says they can all be 'officially' called "Paraiba" in trade. Of course that depends on how "official" one considers the AGTA to be in such matters.

My understanding is that some of the Mozambique "Paraiba" presently being marketed does not need heat treatment but I can't recall where I read that. I could probably look it up if anyone's interested.

The new canary yellow tourmaline from Malawi is also selling at a big price premium for top-end stones but below Paraiba.

ROM


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:40 am 
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That would be the Paraiba from Brazil, no doubt. From what I have seen, the Nigerian stuff doesn't quite have the same pizzazz. Haven't seen the Mozambique variety, although I suspect that if it were as good as the Brazilian Paraiba, there would be more buzz about it going on.

Isn't calling cuprite tourmaline from other than Paraiba "Paraiba" kind of like calling sparkling wine from anywhere but the Champagne region of France "Champagne"? It's not, and that always kind of smacks of trying to piggyback on the reputation of something else that is deservedly the "reference" to which the others are compared.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:08 am 
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Africanuck:

Many (including me) feel as you do about the Paraiba name. I was merely reporting a fact. AGTA is essentially a marketing organization that's responsible to the membership which pays the bills. But its policy decisions carry a lot of weight in the broader colored gem community.

Interestingly, a large Brazilian dealer I'm familiar with carries a lot of Nigerian cuprous tourmaline and sells it under the Paraiba name. Selling gems from one country under the name of another seems to be a tradition in the colored stone trade. Australian sapphire is sold as Thai or Cambodian; Brazilian emerald is sold as Colombian; Madagascan sapphire is sold as Sri Lankan; Brazilian precious opal is sold as Australian and so on. The 'source' with the best reputation and highest prices attracts similar gems from other places.

I don't say it's right but it's human nature and it happens.

ROM


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:48 am 
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ROM,

I know it happens, it's just one of my personal pet peeves. I kind of look at it as "any product that is good enough will have it's own reputation". I think that holds true for just about anything.

How many famous singers got famous because "they sound like XXX"? Probably none. Most of those who make it big sound distinctively like themselves and no one else...

I think that it does a great disservice to the mining areas, many of which may well produce exceptional stones that rival the "reference", to pass the best off as something else, rather than trumpeting to the world that XXX area is producing these XXX amazing stones.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:48 am 
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ROM wrote:
... the AGTA says they can all be 'officially' called "Paraiba" in trade. Of course that depends on how "official" one considers the AGTA to be in such matters.

My understanding is that some of the Mozambique "Paraiba" presently being marketed does not need heat treatment but I can't recall where I read that. I could probably look it up if anyone's interested.



Well, HELL! I thought the AGTA was a better organization than that! Concerned members of AGTA might take a look at it's charter. I was not aware that AGTA had already approved trade usage of the term. Please use your most effective method of persuasion to insist that AGTA retract its position. Many prominent and REPUTABLE AGTA members are doing so even now, and many of those do not regularly deal in Brazilian goods. I accuse all who endorse the changed usage as crooks, or of questionable scruples, ignorant, anti-consumer, or so uninformed that they should retract and reconsider their position.

Such a saga as the discovery of Paraiba ALONE would merit distinction in any other industry. The term "Pariaba" should be sacrosanct. Indeed, "Pariaba" in established trade usage referred to Brazillian goods alone, and the term was, as often as not, simply "Paraiba" , "not Pariaba Tourmaline". My first brush with "Paraiba" NOT refering to Brazillian goods was an attempt to defraud me by selling me Nigerian goods for Brazillina prices. Subsequently, misdirection and fraud has been the ONLY intent that I have seen when the term is used for non-Brazillian goods. The fraud now is mostly directed at the consumer. AGTA and ALL their members know this! How could they morally approve trade usage for other stuff!

If my limited collection is representative, the Paraiba is generally far superior to Nigerian goods. I have no Mozambique goods, but, IMHO, what I have seen falls far short of the quality of Paraiba or Nigerian Stones. The color is a lightly saturated GY, with shifting on the axies to othe light colors.

Well, enough of this rant. AGTA did no good.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:18 am 
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Yeah, I think they dropped the ball on that one. Ur right, the finest Brazilian is unrivaled. It's got that neon pop. AGTA does Paraiba with country of origin, so we can ask for that.

My personal pet peeve is the way the term Padaparadscha is thrown around. I've never seen a stone that tested Pad that wasn't from Ceylon.

I asked if anyone had a non Ceylon stone test Pad somewhere on the board but I forgot where. I'd sure like to know and see the proof. I'm form Missouri as it were

Anyway, dealers that I know are sticklers on this one. Sri Lanka only. Maybe I need to get an update. Except the guys with African goods etc. that want their goods to be Pads but I never saw any certed. Talk about a trade name!

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:33 am 
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Here you go Steve:
http://gemologyonline.com/Forum/phpBB2/ ... dparadscha


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 Post subject: Re: Tourmaline that rivals the price of Alexandrite.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:35 pm 
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gem doc wrote:
Hi everyone,

Continuing on with Tourmaline. What rare Tourmaline is now exceeding the price of Alexandrite per carat? (No hint on this one!)



Paraiba sounds obvious (well, the 'good' ones, whatever that means in light of the discussion around the name etc.). Too obvious? Is this about something new? I haven't heard about fine green/red tourmaline color changers in a long while... especially none that might break the bank!


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:41 pm 
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Actually there is an article in the latest JofG on reverse alexandrite effect in tourmaline from Mozambique.
Purple in daylight, green in incandescent light.

Still need to read that.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:57 pm 
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Doos wrote:
Actually there is an article in the latest JofG on reverse alexandrite effect in tourmaline from Mozambique. Purple in daylight, green in incandescent light.



That so fits the bill here! Any trace online? :) It can wait until next year, of course ...


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 Post subject: Where is "Paraiba?"
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:31 am 
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Has anyone ever had a client/customer come to you and asked about a "water sapphire?" Well, here we go again with misnomers. "Water sapphire" is the common misnomer for Iolite. Kind of like the same thing with "Paraiba" tourmaline. Last time I checked there wasn't ANY locality on the African continent called "Paraiba." Everyone here seems to be in agreement that the SIMILAR but not quite OMG tourmalines from Africa are attractive, but not quite the "real deal," so to speak. And, they aren't. By definition, I would think. The locality of Paraiba in Brazil has come to be associated with top-grade quality, and everything else seems to fall a little short. So, I don't think the dealers can get away to misrepesenting their goods unless we let them in terms of origin. Expect to see a lot of "Paraiba" at the JCK show here in June. How much genuinely from Brazil remains to be seen.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:33 am 
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Dang Tom,
All that bling and money on the Las Vegas strip and you're the only G.G. ? I don't think I'd be giving away that secret. Now that you've disclosed this, a ten year vacation to Sin City is sounding very tempting.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:56 am 
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Perhaps we can organize a group trip. :wink:


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