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 Post subject: I don't like using paraiba type etc and you can not make me.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:32 pm 
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I have been glancing at articles about the WORLD'S LARGEST PARAIBA, the Ethereal Carolina Divine Paraiba and the amazing complex piece of jewelery they set it in. Not only is it huge, it has great purity etc. Some of the articles go on to say that it is certified by the GIA, is from Brazil and is part of only 20 some kilos of rough produced.

How ludicrous the hype is for this "Paraiba" tourmaline came home to me when I was reading an interview with Heitor. the developer of the one and only Paraiba mine. (A few stones from other locations in Brazil maybe thrown in for spice, but nothing from outside of Brazil can be included.) He stated that the largest piece of genuine Paraiba gem rough is about 35 grams. (175 carats.) It is also well known that Paraiba produced tourmaline that are included.

So what is the Ethereal Carolina Divine Paraiba, Since it weighs 191.87 carats, it could not have been cut from the largest piece of gem Paraiba rough ever found at the "true" mine in Brazil. Enough with the detective thing, It is obviously a very large, beautiful PARAIBA TYPE" copper bearing (redundant description, to be sure that you see the ethereal light.) tourmaline from Mozambique. It probably started out life as a very well worn pebble that was so dark that it needed to be heated to be lightened enough to cut such a transparent gemstone and have the cyan color.

Does a true and reasonable description of the beautiful gemstone, diminish it beauty one iota. No, but with this kind of myth making, how can the trade/collector still struggle to keep the "real" Paraiba from being debased? Does the need to separate copper bearing tourmaline from Brazil (Paraiba) and Africa (Cuprian/paraiba type) only apply to back room deals done far from the public eye? If I had beautiful Mozambique copper bearing tourmaline (cuprian tourmaline, paraiba type, copper bearing) and I do, I would like to call it Paraiba and not paraiba type. It just doesn't sound the same. And I have a very similar cuprian stone with great color, clarity and size (for Paraiba) (14 carats), but I can not sell it for anywhere near the price of real Paraiba. (I don't think many flawless 14 carat tourmalines of any description ever came from Paraiba. ) Millions have been spent to be able to keep waves of copper bearing tourmaline separated. A job well done by the laboratories. Still I think the whole Paraiba tourmaline buzz has taken on a life of its own and no amount effort by the trade will keep the cows "gemstones" down on the "paraiba type" farm. (I just don't like calling my beauties paraiba type and it has nothing to do with money.")

Bruce


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 Post subject: Re: I don't like using paraiba type etc and you can not make
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:15 pm 
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Hi Bruce-have only just seen this post,which is the reason I was confused about your
earlier question via e-mail.
It seems as if "origin" has a certain cachet[Burma ruby and sapphire etc],but this should
not be the prime determinant of quality.OK,some premium over similar quality stones,a bit
like a Porsche Cayenne vs a VW Tiguan[I think]-same engine,gearbox etc and,maybe a 10%
price premium for the "badge".
I think you have a similar issue as Santa Maria aquamarine.The good stuff from Mozambique,
I have lots,gets over this by calling itself Santa Maria africana.There is still some price difference,
but not a lot.So maybe,instead of calling it "Paraiba Type:",it should be called Paraiba africana.
However,I don't think you need to convince us,you need to convince the dealers and their customers.
In marketing,perception is the key.Maybe you can check how Santa Maria africana came into being
and use a similar approach.While you are doing that,get as much of the African material as you can,
because when the stocks of Brazilian Paraiba run out,you will be in the "pound seats".
In the same vein,I have been collecting Sandawana[Zimbabwe] emerald for years.Although Colombian
emerald is viewed as the world's best emerald,Sandawana is finer[especially in small sizes],and does not
need to be oiled or resinated.Now that it is virtually unobtainable,the price is shooting up.See Wildfish Gems
to find out.


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 Post subject: Re: I don't like using paraiba type etc and you can not make
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:07 pm 
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One thing we all must remember is that origin has to matter on at least some level, or else synthetics would have destroyed the market ages ago.

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 Post subject: Re: I don't like using paraiba type etc and you can not make
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:57 pm 
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I focused on the giant gemstone in this post because it is a blatant violation of nominclature and the usurping of facts about rarity and location, that even brings in the GIA. What the billionair and his press group is selling, physically CAN NOT BE. All the good and bad ideas about ensuring the public gets what it pays for is ignored and what is done about it? They obviously did not like calling the monster, cuprian or paraiba type so they have the power to call it what they want without rebuttle. This is just a single case of the mess that is the valuation of copper bearing tourmaline at the present time. There are more that I have posted about.

Finally as I have said before, you can debate, test and attempt to restrict the presentation of copper bearing tourmaline to the public etc., but all copper bearing tourmaline that has the appropriate (and some inappropriate) gemolocial properties of color, tone value and saturation are going to be called paraiba in my opinion, in the end.

Bruce


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 Post subject: Re: I don't like using paraiba type etc and you can not make
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:51 am 
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Years ago, the GIA officially stated it was aware that large amounts of cuprian tourmaline rough material from Africa (from both Nigeria and Mozambique) was being sent to Brazil and mixed with the original Paraiba rough. All was being sold as Brazilian material. It wasn't until years later that, through GIA lab studies, that the origins could once again be separated (through lead [PB] ratios, etc.) In the meantime, dealers and individuals bought hundreds of carats of material that was purported to be all Brazilian Paraiba. Probably has something to do with the confusion about the origin of the "Ethereal Carolina" paraiba and, alas, may be the original source of confusion and resentment in the "Paraiba tourmaline" business today.

Mike C.
Palm Bay, Florida


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 Post subject: Re: I don't like using paraiba type etc and you can not make
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:12 am 
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I have been told from a number of people with different angles on the trade in rough gemstones, mainly tourmaline and aquamarine, that Brazilians have imported large amounts of the rough from Africa, processed it and sold it as Brazlian for years. I once asked an expatriate American that has live in Brazil many years and worked in the trade about getting rough from Africa and claiming it was Brazilian. She replyed: How else would we keep our trade going?

When I started spending significant amounts of money on tourmaline rough, I was surprised to be told that Brazilian rough materia sold at a premium to African material. I never obtained very much cutting material from Brazil and I have come not to trust that any gemstone out of Brazil is untreated whether it is revealed as such or not. (Assuming that the rough can be treated.)

With this kind of back ground and the ability to make a lot of money quickly, it is rediculous to think that African copper bearing material has not been mixed into Brazilian material and sold at the much higher prices of Brazilian material. Not all Brazilian material is better. But some African material is so different that it is reasonable to separate it from Brazilian by eye. The gemstone I have written about here is an example of just such a stone.

Bruce


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 Post subject: Re: I don't like using paraiba type etc and you can not make
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:52 am 
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Well said Bruce- and you bring personal confirmation to what the GIA and AGL have been saying for years. I have seen, owned and own many cuprians and have never seen or heard of a 2+ ct VVS, let alone flawless, paraiba from Brazil, so for me all I need is to see the size to know the origin- they just don't make em that big in Brazil LOL. The only identification question is differentiating Mozambique from Nigerian- and does that really matter? Regardless, I, and other buyers, still want a lab report (don't forget, legitimate labs issue "reports", never "certificates")

That does bring up a question I have- do you, Bruce, or anyone else, have an opinion on whether there is a difference in quality between Mozambique paraiba vs. Nigerian?


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 Post subject: Re: I don't like using paraiba type etc and you can not make
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:51 am 
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I hope you don't stay the quiet type for you have asked a very good question. I rate it right up there with needing to know whether the Brazilian cuprian tourmaline comes from the state of Paraiba or Del Norte. ( I don't think I have the spelling right, but I think you know where I am talking about.)

I know that Nigerian and Mozambique material can be separated by the labs, but I don't know anyway it can be done by eye. I just think that so much more cuprian has been found in Mozambique than anywhere else that I assume the material to be from there until proven otherwise. As The Guide presses on you, the market is not interested in the origin of the cuprian tourmaline unless it comes from Brazil and can be called Paraiba.

Bruce


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 Post subject: Re: I don't like using paraiba type etc and you can not make
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:30 pm 
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Thanks Bruce. I have never seen "The Guide", but would guess there is little data on true Brazilian origin stones above 3ct., whereas there do exist African paraiba well above 40 ct. I would also guess that for both, values increase exponentially with size. What is the premium as a percentage on Brazil vs. African? Do you see that gap closing now that there is little, or no, new material coming from either continent?

Unrelatedly, why do you think nobody has come up with a way to quantitatively measure the "Paraiba glow" property that we all know should be the ultimate valuation criterion? Doesn't seem like it would be that hard to come up with a universal test and standard for the internal glow property. Those of us that have seen it, know there is no mistaking it or forgetting it- it's like each stone has it's own little built in flashlight! It's shouldn't be based on copper, or whatever, content only. They should be evaluated on the "4 c's" plus a value for "glow"- that would make it so much easier.


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 Post subject: Re: I don't like using paraiba type etc and you can not make
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:32 pm 
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I greatly appreciate your glowing comments. And your questions and observations mirror mine very closely. Once you have seen the glow like quality of some tourmaline it is unforgetable. I say some tourmaline because it does not have to be cuprian to have a glow like quality that transends vivid anything, in my book. Here are some ideas about it and maybe they will add up to why it has been ignored by many gemologist if not the market.

1, The glowing quality of some tourmaline is not new.


2, The glow like qualities of some tourmaline. as I said, doesn't make it cuprian.

3, Iron colored tourmaline with a great saturation, tone level and in the right colors can put out a fine glow like look, but I don't think iron is as effective as copper.

4, There is no standard for the glow, like a per centage of copper that is needed for a tourmaline to demontrate the quality.

5, The glow like quality basically can not be photographed. To me it makes the pictures look over exposed.

6. The trade has focused excessively on color with the invention of various adjectives to describe a vivid bluish color and that hype tends to continued rather than looking at the really unique property ( apparent glow) of high quality tourmaline..

7 Since the glow like quality of some tourmaline is produced by the mind/eye's comparison of the amount of light coming from the stone and an internal standard, (That is how I visualize it.) I am sure that it varies between people.

8, The glow like quality varies with both the intensity of the light source and its color.

9. Lack of experience with high quality glow like tourmaline.

You can pick and choose any of the above to see why a standard would be hard to formulated or inforce.

How might a standard be deveoped and supported is something I have dreamed about. I was reading about custom designed LED lights when it dawned on me that one of those, as a cyan light source, with a varible brightness setting might do the trick. Set it up under the lights they grade diamonds under and match the tourmaline. We could have different LEDs for different colors. Once you had such an inexpensive standard, I think the trade would universially look at the glow like quality when valuing tourmaline. I know dealers that handle tourmaline rough are very sensitive to the glow like quality and charge you for it. Color alone does not make a Afghanistan seafoam tourmaline top grade. And it is more than just vividness.

I really have not followed the pricing of cuprian/Paraiba/paraiba type/paraiba like tourmaline very much. I got what I could, both before it was discovered in gem quality tourmaline from Mozambique and after, but only in the rough. And since I don't have any of my cuprian for sale now I have not looked at cut prices. But I am trying to get into selling regular tourmaline and I subscibed to The Guide. I have recently posted what I can see from their numbers on cuprian. The market certainly prizes smaller high quality stones from outside of Brazilian, when compared with larger high quality stones that are out of the size range of Brazilian material. I think this preference for a size range of tourmaline that could have come from Brazil, but didn't, is the markets answer for the large difference in price between very similar material. This is not saying that top grade Paraiba has any equal, but lower grades can produce more difficulty in identification.

Bruce


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 Post subject: Re: I don't like using paraiba type etc and you can not make
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:15 pm 
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While I am very, very sympathetic to the whole ... no clean Brazilian paraibas over 2ct... position

I thought I'd just add this- this article suggests that this stone was illegally mined in the Paraiba region of Brasil

see:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... tones.html

'course, it never says flat out that that stone came from that group... who knows.

Pala Gem's newsletter also reported on the illegal mining arrests, but the "Ethereal" is not mentioned.

http://www.palagems.com/gem-news-2015-08

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 Post subject: Re: I don't like using paraiba type etc and you can not make
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:28 pm 
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After reading the articles you kindly supplied nothing has changed in my opinion. The one article that mentions the "Ethereal" is just showing how valuable the items could be that were illegally or legally mined. The "Ethereal" has been around longer than that illegal operation I think.

Bruce


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 Post subject: Re: I don't like using paraiba type etc and you can not make
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:33 am 
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Him... here's a silly question.
Are there any other minerals that did monstrate a similar "glow"?
I have heard that fine feldspar seems to have an appearance noticeable even to those ignorant of its nature...


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 Post subject: Re: I don't like using paraiba type etc and you can not make
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:30 pm 
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I can think of at least one example...
Image
...though I think violent fluorescence is probably cheating.

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 Post subject: Re: I don't like using paraiba type etc and you can not make
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:30 pm 
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One of the most beautiful sights I have seen in gem material was a pulled piece of synthetic scheelite that put out the most intense powder blue glow under short wave ultraviolet. It was part of a presentation on synthetic materials used for lasers and how to grow them. It was put on Dr. Nashau of Bell Labs who also work on irradiating tourmaline. I was about fifteen at the time.

Bruce


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