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 Post subject: Paraiba tourmaline the evolving myth.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:21 pm 
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Many "precious" gemstone varieties have a long history that extends back into the mists of time. Powerful princes and beautiful sirens abound in exotic settings filled with unimaginable gems of singular beauty. How much is true or not is besides the point, it is certainly more interesting than a technical report on red corundum etc. And it builds demand, helps keep prices high and makes most people happy.

But poor Paraiba tourmaline has only had since the late 1980s to started having myths spun about its beauty, rarity and desirability. The discovery stories (I am including paraiba type material from Mozambique) have taken time to be refined and enhanced, but those selling the gemstone have worked hard to pass the finished stories around the inter net. How truthful and complete they are is again besides the point. They help sell stones.

But there has cropped up an inconvenient truth, that this is not a long lost time suitable for myths and somethings about what is Paraiba or not Paraiba tourmaline has been set in stone and should not be manipulated. Data should not be cherry picked for the fabrication of demand, higher prices and making most everyone happy.

What has brought me to the point of working my fingers over a well worn subject, is an attempt, by a well known and respected dealer, to try and sell a large (over forty carats) green yellow cuprian tourmaline. I have had a long ramp up to this point reading everything from ball faced lies to ignorance about Paraiba tourmaline, but the green yellow tourmaline advertisement was the last straw.

The dealers description of the cuprian tourmaline is brief. It states that the gemstone has been tested and found to contain both copper and manganese. This permits it to be called Paraiba, but the lab decided that it had too much yellow in it to be called Paraiba. Here we have the magic "P" word used when the gemstone that could have never come from Paraiba and does not meet the agreed to color range of cuprian tourmaline that can be called Paraiba, no matter where it comes from. The dealer concludes by basically saying that he disagrees with the gemological laboratory.

I feel that the exceptional prices, that copper bearing tourmaline, of the right depth of tone, color and saturation has, is like gravity. It relentlessly attracts the best parts of every truth, angle and invention to enhance and permit the sale of very rare gemstones to a very select set of consumers. ( I have broached the buying of Paraiba with some local jewelers and they can not figure out why anyone would buy such expensive tourmaline.) So the work of building stories of substance and myth must go on and on and on.

As a foot note, I have found what looks like many dealers and organizations that have been drawn to tourmaline by the gravity of Paraiba tourmaline's glory and then tried to act like they understand the world of tourmaline. Their very recent efforts usually fail miserably. Be very careful how you generalize about tourmaline. ( I have to keep reminding myself about that too.)

Bruce


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 Post subject: Re: Paraiba tourmaline the evolving myth.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 4:18 am 
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Great post, Bruce. I for one agree with your take on the "myth of paraiba". A gimmick that has taken over the market. I keep seeing stones that have such a lackluster hue and poor sat. being sold, and priced very accordingly, as Paraiba tourmaline.
It's so ridiculous it makes me...makes me...um..err...frustrated.
The reasoning goes like this....like you have said before...
I have two tourmalines. One is colored by Cu...one by Fe.
The Fe based one could have such great color, tone, and saturation when compared to the Cu based one, but because of the presence of tiny minute particles, of an element you can't even see, the price of the cuprian will be much higher, and/or not proportionally priced accordingly.

I keep seeing paraiba tourmalines being purchased, or used in projects on other forums and I keep wondering where all this material is coming from. I thought most of the mines were pickin' scraps these days. The japanese get anything that does slip through anyways.

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 Post subject: Re: Paraiba tourmaline the evolving myth.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:43 am 
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Thanks for the support. If tone value and saturation are not considered along with hue to pronounce a tourmaline, Paraiba/paraiba like/paraiba type, (I also think the glow like quality of fine tourmaline colored by copper has to held in high estem. It really is what sets Paraiba apart!) a sea of blue green tourmaline rushes in and swamps the whole attempt to bring order to the market of a truely exceptional gemstone. And cost some people way too much money for no more beauty than indicolite/blue green tourmaline has been poducing for years.

Bruce


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 Post subject: Re: Paraiba tourmaline the evolving myth.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:30 pm 
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I just had a guy two days ago frantically message me 4 or 5 times on my youtube account, asking to buy my paraiba specimens from Batalha. he saw videos I posted a long time ago or mostly opaque specimens..a couple small gemmy ones but...

"Hi, I am Brazilian and I have been looking everywhere for the Batalha mine paraiba tourmalne. I would like to know if you would sell me this piece? Also is there a certificate that stats its authencity and origin? It is heavily included and not transparent, but I would still love to have this one. How many carats is it in total and how many of it is the tourmaline? There are many different stones that look very much like this, so I really want to know if you have the GIA certificate? Please add me on facebook if you are willing to sell it


and then..
. I am looking everywhere to buy one of these Batalha mine Paraiba tourmaline, but many people are posting fake material, and this one really looks like the true Heitorita one. I am going to my country, Brazil next year to buy paraiba tourmaline of smaller size, that has been kept for over 20 years with a guy my friend knows, but of this size that is uncut of a bit larger size is extremely difficult to find. How many carats is this heitorita? I would really appreciate if you would sell me one of yours, this one or the darker saphire blue one you have, or at least guide me to someone that can sell me one, thanks.

He wants the super blue crystal on quartz matrix, that Skip Simmons wanted to buy from me. It's opaque through and through..LOL

LOL...poor guy is asking for trouble by buying "paraiba rough" off ebay.. He has the "paraiba fever"!!
Also called "paraiba pox" or "cuprian conjunctivitis" in the New England and Ohio valley of areas! :mrgreen: :^o


Crazy stuff these folks do for tiny molecules of Cu

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Last edited by Jason Barrett on Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Paraiba tourmaline the evolving myth.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:02 pm 
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Now with a little magic and a lot of epoxy, maybe we can solve your opacity problem. I read about a new filler designed for tourmaline's IR. The company first product was designed for emeralds. Now with the cuprian buzz they have moved upscale? Now this stuff not only has the right IR, it will never yellow, can be cut and polished etc. In other words it is perfect for tourmaline.

So I googled and found Clarity Enhancement Laboratory LLC, in New York City. Now I only found their site for emerald, but it was enough. They wanted $100 a carat to work their magic. Now I did the math and decided that a certain rather opaque gemstone I have is not yet ready for the treatment. But I hear from a dealer that most of the cut Paraiba/cuprian/paraiba type she trys to buy on the web have been treated to enhance its clarity. (Not necessarily with this epoxy.)

So I got out my crystal ball, which is cracked and threw it distorted images, I see the future of tourmaline. With the treatment of "high" grade tourmaline (copper bearing) rampant, why worry about those nasty inconvient feathers, flaws etc. in "normal" rough, we will just treat the finished gemstone and they will go away. It will end up being like "mild" heat accepted by the industry will very little comment. The best natural material will be sequested by the collectors, who might still care, and have little impact on the market. Everyone will just assume the tourmaline is treated and not bear the cost of having it tested. (at least some colors)

With is view of the future, I am in my semi facet mode. In this mode I try and get larger pieces of included material with basically good crystal and vivid color. Threw a wasteful process, I try and produce a gemstone with fine color and feathers etc. more or less oriented perpendicular to the table. The orientation of the "naturals" (I love the use of that word) takes effort and material, but even if the epoxy fails to win the world, I have cut some beautiful included gemstones that are naturals for my collecion. If I waited for purity in every color that I have, I would still be waiting for success, when I get that ticket to ride.

That should be the end of this post, but I have the need to share one of my adventures. (I have probably written about this already, but my mind/fingers are going.) The rough was cab grade and deaply waterworn. There was really very little light that could be seen threw the ends, of what is now an eliptical solid, that were verticlal to the c axis of the original crystal. The piece of rough had a good size of plus twenty carats and a fine blue a/b color, which is why the piece was even for sale. It did not, at first, appear to have the normal run of feathers and flaws, but after I cut one end off and started grinding down the frosted surface, dense, white, non-reflective clouds appeared that were more or less paralled the c axis. But the dark ends were showing that they were at most only semi-closed and the work went on. Out came most of the clouds, down came the size of the girdle of the thinnest round I could make. The size of the round was now being driven by the hope that the tone value of the c axis ends was not too dark to be useful. And the ends now began to open up with the greatous blue I have ever seen in tourmaline, (the stone was a true indicolite without even a green vector in the lighter a/b direction.)

So what did I get when the stone appeared out of the the alcohol bath I use to clean my babies. A stone for all seasons. Yes, it still has at least two while non-reflection and not very distracting clouds on either side of the culet. But under lower lighting conditions I have the bright blue eye of the a/b color and under brighter light I have more and more, depending on the light, of the c axis color that is both vivid and a saturated blue. So if you are giving an all day garden party and only have room for one pin on your bossom, this is the stone for you. When your expensive sapphire gets overwhemed by the bright afternoon sun, this stone will shine and when you wear it while helping the servents in the early morning light set up for the party, the eye will soak up color and amaze you. All for the price of one included gemstone, set in platnium of course. (Yellow gold would tended to have the blue stone take on a greenish cast.)

Bruce

Paraiba tourmaline for sale, only $10 for each ppm of copper times as many carats as you can handle. Transparency is optional.


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 Post subject: Re: Paraiba tourmaline the evolving myth.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:18 pm 
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A most fantastic post, Bruce!! I loved the ending...
"Paraiba tourmaline for sale, only $10 for each ppm of copper times as many carats as you can handle. Transparency is optional."

I absolutely love your post on curpians. I have not been around for a good while on here, but I am back for a little bit and need to catch up on all the new post of yours, as well as all the other good threads I have missed.

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 Post subject: Re: Paraiba tourmaline the evolving myth.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:49 pm 
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Some pics of a couple batalha specimens that I got from my dealer in Brazil some years back.
that will help lighten up the room and add a little color to it :mrgreen: =D> 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Paraiba tourmaline the evolving myth.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:29 am 
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Thank you for your morning cheer. I smile at seeing the pink parts of your material from Batalia, because the name game begins. The pink tourmaline probably does contain copper and would heat to a very pale blue, the same as the purples and grays etc. but should not be called Paraiba, even when heated, because their tone level would be too low. On top of that, their color is not listed in the cuprian tourmaline pricing charts in the Gem Guide even though yellow and many other colors are listed. On top of that the listed locations for cuprian tourmalines are only Nigeria and Mozambique, not Brazil. And calling them paraiba type, which should be material that is cuprian and LOOKS LIKE PARABA is out of the question, as I have said earlier, because heated or not, they don't LOOK LIKE PARAIBA. Now that we have run out of nice marketable names, I proposed to name those pink miscreatant parts of the copper bearing tourmaline from the Batalia mine,PINK COPPER BEARING TOURMALINE FROM THE BATALIA MINE IN THE STATE OF PARAIBA BRAZIL. I am sure that with that name, the material will be gobbled up by the Japanese who do tend to favor exceptional things like Paraiba and yellow tourmaline among other colored gemstones. Now I don't want to hear any grumbling because we have to stay in Harmony with the true needs of the BUYING public. Name on gentle souls.

Bruce


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 Post subject: Re: Paraiba tourmaline the evolving myth.
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:52 pm 
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Well Bruce, how about we start a new marketing gimmick and try to push some other element that is found in tourmaline???

Clearly, color doesn't matter anymore in regards to demand and price! Only has to have Cu to be worth it's weight in gold!!
Here is a list of elements found in tourmalines that I compiled a few years back.
I am sure I left out some(fluorine?)
We can use this list to promote...let's see....hmm..something catchy who's effect doesn't matter in regards to color quality.
"Neodymium tourmaline" :^o or maybe...."Holy Holmium tourmaline" :mrgreen: :^o

Manganese, Praseodymium, Nickel, Iron, Copper, Lithium, Zinc, Lead, Gallium, Strontium, Tin, Barium, aluminum, silicon, Bismuth, Beryllium, Titanium, Niobium, Uranium, Lanthanum, Thorium, Cesium, Chromium, Vanadium, Tantalum, Cobalt, Rubidium, Zirconium, Molybdenum, silver, Neodymium, Samarium, Europium, Gadolinium, Terbium, Erbium, Holmium, Thulium, Ytterbium, Lutetium, Oxygen,

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 Post subject: Re: Paraiba tourmaline the evolving myth.
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:52 pm 
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The one that takes the cake is gold. And if Paraiba tourmaline wasn't so pretty and valuable, it could be a gold ore since some German lab says it has a higher level of gold than the average value for the earth. etc. What the golden particles are, is copper and no German lab ever found gold in Paraiba. You can bet the farm on that one. But if the old homestead has too much continental driff it might end up next to a copper bearing tourmaline location. This has to be since only "one" spot in the world (or at least some place close to it) can produce copper tourmaline. Then we could let the canary out of the cage made of magnesium, which will be like the sun rising in the east, only in East Africa that is. And the myths about tourmaline go on. and on and on.

Bruce


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 Post subject: Re: Paraiba tourmaline the evolving myth.
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:00 pm 
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Jason Barrett wrote:
"Neodymium tourmaline" :^o

Nd has powerful and amazing chromophoric effects in the right context. I'd bet a properly Nd-rich tourmaline would be something special, though I could be very wrong on that.

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 Post subject: Re: Paraiba tourmaline the evolving myth.
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:39 am 
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When science solves the kinetic and thermodynamic problems with producing tourmaline at a reasonable cost, a wonderful world of investigation and beauty will open up. Problems with what colors tourmaline will be much easier to solve in pure synthetic tourmaline than the mixed up garbage can we find in natural tourmaline. And the colors and effects caused by different lighting conditions will be amazing.

It is nice to know that the tourmaline out there in the market is natural, but I would be one of the first to buy a "large" synthetic Paraiba tourmaline along with so much more. (I would want to cut it.) But I think that is still sometime in the future and considering the reactivity of the principle elements in tourmaline and their number, I don't think that synthetic tourmaline will ever be as inexpensive as synthetic corundum and other available synthetic gemstones of today.

Bruce


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 Post subject: Re: Paraiba tourmaline the evolving myth.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:10 am 
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This Brazilian guy has been chatting with me for some days now. He is full of questions and inquisitiveness, but I am not sure if I am getting through to him.
He is dead set on selling stones as a beginner...cuprian ones at that...LOL
He just bought this 13ct piece off ebay that the seller said was Batalha Mine Paraiba. The seller also said his wife is making him sell his stones and that is why he is getting rid of this one #-o
He paid $150 or $160 for it one just the "good" word of the seller that it's cuprian...sigh
13cts...from batalha.....copper bearing....only $150??? [-o< :?
is it even tourmaline??
Image
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Last edited by Jason Barrett on Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Paraiba tourmaline the evolving myth.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:26 am 
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I hate to know what he's bought so far... and I'm sure his wife won't be happy if she finds out what he's really purchased on the good word of his dealer.

Looks great from the pic! I've got a handful of stones that match that, ranging from tourmaline to beryl to flourite. Maybe even a chunk of glass too.

On a serious note, I ended up in that trap when I was young and starting too, only with opals instead of faceting rough. I have an awful lot of white potch dotted with the occasional accidental bit of fire if anyone wants some. I'll give you a reeeeaaaallly good deal too 8)

-Allan

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 Post subject: Re: Paraiba tourmaline the evolving myth.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:56 am 
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he is a young guy...like 20 something, living in the states but is Brazilian originally.
I have been showing and telling him all the ground rules when it comes to buying this stuff and I have tried to dissuade and discourage him from even attempting it. On a more positive note, he has a contact in Brazil that is a family friend.....some older person(his description) who has Paraiba rough and is selling some large parcel and is supposedly asking Millions.
He will only sell it as a parcel and not single, he said. This guy has been telling me he is going to get some rough when he goes down there next year to visit.

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Last edited by Jason Barrett on Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

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