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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:02 pm 
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As I asked ages ago, do you have a picture of the rough material?
If you want to send me a sample or 2 of your material, I will personally make sure it gets to Nathan Renfro.

Just chip off a bit and send it in a padded envelope as a mineral specimen.


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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:33 pm 
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Barbra Voltaire wrote:
As I asked ages ago, do you have a picture of the rough material?
If you want to send me a sample or 2 of your material, I will personally make sure it gets to Nathan Renfro.

Just chip off a bit and send it in a padded envelope as a mineral specimen.

I don't have the picture of the rough stones , but I already told the seller that if she finds something like this in the future , just give me rough stones.
As those specimens are rare and already been cut into pendants, I do not want to damage them to get a sample, but if I can get the rough stones in the future, I can cut a piece off and send it to you.


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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:34 pm 
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This is all really fascinating. I would say if it is a fake it's definitely much more sophisticated than the common faux-rutilated doublets. That said, more elaborate fake inclusions do exist, and I think it's a general principal that there is nothing so obscure or perverse that someone in the gem trade won't try it, but this one looks pretty elaborate.
I wouldn't necessarily trust a normal SEM to give highly accurate elemental ratios or identify trace elements, and it takes some context to identify minerals using it, but I do think you'd notice the difference between e.g. epoxy and quartz, and you could definitely spot gold if it's exposed at the surface.

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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:58 pm 
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zbhjzm wrote:
Filiform gold does exist in nature as described on mindat and I even found a picture of gold wire in quartz:
https://uwaterloo.ca/wat-on-earth/news/ ... production

that is completely different from the inclusions in your quartz,

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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:28 pm 
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Stephen Challener wrote:
This is all really fascinating. I would say if it is a fake it's definitely much more sophisticated than the common faux-rutilated doublets. That said, more elaborate fake inclusions do exist, and I think it's a general principal that there is nothing so obscure or perverse that someone in the gem trade won't try it, but this one looks pretty elaborate.
I wouldn't necessarily trust a normal SEM to give highly accurate elemental ratios or identify trace elements, and it takes some context to identify minerals using it, but I do think you'd notice the difference between e.g. epoxy and quartz, and you could definitely spot gold if it's exposed at the surface.

the thing is that these specimens has not been identified as quartz the only test that has been done was polariscope and x-ray spectroscopy no RI or even no identifying for uniaxial or bulls eyes with polariscope

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Last edited by roshanravan on Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:06 pm 
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Stephen Challener wrote:
This is all really fascinating. I would say if it is a fake it's definitely much more sophisticated than the common faux-rutilated doublets. That said, more elaborate fake inclusions do exist, and I think it's a general principal that there is nothing so obscure or perverse that someone in the gem trade won't try it, but this one looks pretty elaborate.
I wouldn't necessarily trust a normal SEM to give highly accurate elemental ratios or identify trace elements, and it takes some context to identify minerals using it, but I do think you'd notice the difference between e.g. epoxy and quartz, and you could definitely spot gold if it's exposed at the surface.

Thank you.
Actually , because there are cavities , fissures and impurities in the stones , they are sold to me as low quality rutilated quartz and quartz with unknown inclusions, and the prices are relativity cheap.
Though I'm not a gemologist , I've been a collector of quartz for many years, I've seem really a lot of quartz specimens, including synthetic and fake ones. And as you said, those specimens are too sophisticated to be fake ones.
If someone wants to fake something like this , finding gold wires so fine like those in the specimens will be the first challenge.
I doubt someone will go through all the troubles just to fake something as"low quality gemstones".


Last edited by zbhjzm on Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:10 pm 
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roshanravan wrote:
zbhjzm wrote:
Filiform gold does exist in nature as described on mindat and I even found a picture of gold wire in quartz:
https://uwaterloo.ca/wat-on-earth/news/ ... production

that is completely different from the inclusions in your quartz,

Yes, they are different , the picture is merely a proof that gold wires can exist in quartz.
The specimens I have are indeed odd, I've never seem anything quite like them.


Last edited by zbhjzm on Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:22 pm 
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roshanravan wrote:
Stephen Challener wrote:
This is all really fascinating. I would say if it is a fake it's definitely much more sophisticated than the common faux-rutilated doublets. That said, more elaborate fake inclusions do exist, and I think it's a general principal that there is nothing so obscure or perverse that someone in the gem trade won't try it, but this one looks pretty elaborate.
I wouldn't necessarily trust a normal SEM to give highly accurate elemental ratios or identify trace elements, and it takes some context to identify minerals using it, but I do think you'd notice the difference between e.g. epoxy and quartz, and you could definitely spot gold if it's exposed at the surface.

the thing is that these specimens has not been identified as quartz the only test that has been done was polariscope and x-ray spectroscopy no IR or even no identifying for uniaxial or bulls eyes with polariscope

I'm not a gemologist, I do not have the resources to do the tests, I have to pay for it.The tests have already cost me more money than the stone itself. Even if I pay someone to do the IR test and proved that the stone is quartz, people can still question me if the quartz is synthetic or expoied together and if the inclusions are indeed gold...
I know only a report from the big labs like GIA can make everyone believe.
So, I'll keep trying to contact them.


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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:04 am 
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roshanravan wrote:
the thing is that these specimens has not been identified as quartz the only test that has been done was polariscope and x-ray spectroscopy no IR or even no identifying for uniaxial or bulls eyes with polariscope

Well, we have two points of data (assuming we take the test results at face value, which I currently have no reason not to). We have the gross chemical composition from the SEM (which, while not good for trace elements is perfect adequate for bulk composition above a certain atomic number) pointing to SiO2, and we have visible doubling of inclusions proving it is crystalline (at least a portion of what we're looking at the inclusion through is crystalline). ADR won't produce doubling like that. I think that is more than adequate to identify quartz.

Honestly the silvery inclusion looks way weirder than the gold to me, but cannizzarite does appear to naturally occur in that form outside of quartz so I'm not sure it's necessarily a bridge too far.

I'm certainly not saying with certainty that it's real, but I don't think the evidence produced thus far is completely worthless either, and it paints a very interesting picture.

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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:53 pm 
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Why don't you sell me a piece zbhjzm?

I'll get it to Nathan Renfro and Dr. George Rossman.

Kinda reminiscent to the red andesine dilemma if you ask me. Suddenly, several examples of never before seen curiosities pop up with stories and lab reports.


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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:39 pm 
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Barbra Voltaire wrote:
Why don't you sell me a piece zbhjzm?

I'll get it to Nathan Renfro and Dr. George Rossman.

Kinda reminiscent to the red andesine dilemma if you ask me. Suddenly, several examples of never before seen curiosities pop up with stories and lab reports.

=D> =D> =D> =D> the contribution you have to to Gemology society =D> =D> =D> =D>
p.s i used to follow Andesine story but it had so much drama! what is the final conclusion on Red Andesine? the final word was a research from GRS which was proofing Tibet Andesine exist any other rumor after that?
Stephen Challener wrote:
Well, we have two points of data (assuming we take the test results at face value, which I currently have no reason not to). We have the gross chemical composition from the SEM (which, while not good for trace elements is perfect adequate for bulk composition above a certain atomic number) pointing to SiO2, and we have visible doubling of inclusions proving it is crystalline (at least a portion of what we're looking at the inclusion through is crystalline). ADR won't produce doubling like that. I think that is more than adequate to identify quartz.

Honestly the silvery inclusion looks way weirder than the gold to me, but cannizzarite does appear to naturally occur in that form outside of quartz so I'm not sure it's necessarily a bridge too far.

I'm certainly not saying with certainty that it's real, but I don't think the evidence produced thus far is completely worthless either, and it paints a very interesting picture.

actually i find those results inconclusive for many reasons that i have stated before

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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:49 pm 
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Barbra Voltaire wrote:
Why don't you sell me a piece zbhjzm?

I'll get it to Nathan Renfro and Dr. George Rossman.

Kinda reminiscent to the red andesine dilemma if you ask me. Suddenly, several examples of never before seen curiosities pop up with stories and lab reports.

I'm very sorry Barbra, I can't.
Though I've been asked for many times over those years, It is kinda of a principle that I don't do selling or advertising.If I do, people will stat to think that I have the motive to spread false information only to get my stuffs sold.
I hope you can understand...


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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:05 pm 
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Honestly, I'm a little pissed of been compare to the Tibet Andesine thing. Those red andesine are out there on the market , you can buy as many as you want.But I doubt that you will find any more of those Gold included quartz on the market, but if you do ,you can simply buy one and study it by yourselves.
Finally , If you don't believe the evidences I provided, then nothing I say will matter to you , and I'll just stop posting.


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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:14 pm 
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roshanravan wrote:
actually i find those results inconclusive for many reasons that i have stated before

If you wouldn't mind, I'd appreciate you elaborating on that a bit. I've used EDS analysis in geological research before, and though it does have limitations, identifying that a spot is largely silica is pretty much directly in its wheelhouse. You don't even have to worry about the ratios between elements or oxidation states as you would in separating some minerals because all it can detect is silicon, which doesn't leave much leeway.
Aside from that, the photo of doubling seems unambiguous as to its crystalline nature, since ADR won't do that.

I'll admit I'm not sure what the XRD result is showing (perhaps he meant XRF?) but I'm not really taking that into account anyway.

zbhjzm wrote:
Honestly, I'm a little pissed of been compare to the Tibet Andesine thing. Those red andesine are out there on the market , you can buy as many as you want.But I doubt that you will find any more of those Gold included quartz on the market, but if you do ,you can simply buy one and study it by yourselves.

I don't think Barbra was meaning imply anything negative about you. As I understand it at the very start of the andesine thing much smaller amounts were entering the market and lots of dealers were caught unawares. Much like that treatment, this would have to be something new and clever so there wouldn't be any shame in being taken in by it if it turns out to be that kind of situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:48 pm 
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Stephen Challener wrote:
roshanravan wrote:
actually i find those results inconclusive for many reasons that i have stated before

If you wouldn't mind, I'd appreciate you elaborating on that a bit. I've used EDS analysis in geological research before, and though it does have limitations, identifying that a spot is largely silica is pretty much directly in its wheelhouse. You don't even have to worry about the ratios between elements or oxidation states as you would in separating some minerals because all it can detect is silicon, which doesn't leave much leeway.
Aside from that, the photo of doubling seems unambiguous as to its crystalline nature, since ADR won't do that.

I'll admit I'm not sure what the XRD result is showing (perhaps he meant XRF?) but I'm not really taking that into account anyway.

zbhjzm wrote:
Honestly, I'm a little pissed of been compare to the Tibet Andesine thing. Those red andesine are out there on the market , you can buy as many as you want.But I doubt that you will find any more of those Gold included quartz on the market, but if you do ,you can simply buy one and study it by yourselves.

I don't think Barbra was meaning imply anything negative about you. As I understand it at the very start of the andesine thing much smaller amounts were entering the market and lots of dealers were caught unawares. Much like that treatment, this would have to be something new and clever so there wouldn't be any shame in being taken in by it if it turns out to be that kind of situation.


The XRF analysis was done by a handheld metal analyzer , It turned out that this kind of equipment is unsuitable for analyse the inclusions because the exposed tips of the inclusions are so tiny.So the result is incorrect.

I'm sorry if I mistook the meaning of Barbra.
I merely wanna to clear that I'm just a collector, not a seller, I got the specimens from someone else. I can only guarantee that I didn't fake any evidence such as pictures and test results. Everyone can have their own opinion about Whether or not the evidences are enough to prove that the stones are real.


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