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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:18 pm 
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What are you hoping to accomplish here, zbhjzm?

Bottom line.

Do you want to find out what your unknown is or don't you?

Get a piece to a gemological lab/ gemologist and report back.
You are posting the results of inappropriate spectrographic instrumentation which positively identify nothing.

Standard gemological instruments, such as a microscope, polariscope, refractometer and UV light would produce solid information we could all interpret.

And furthermore, don't get a pissy attitude with me, not only am I trying to help you identify this material, I'm paying for the bandwidth you are using!


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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:08 pm 
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Barbra Voltaire wrote:
What are you hoping to accomplish here, zbhjzm?

Bottom line.

Do you want to find out what your unknown is or don't you?

Get a piece to a gemological lab/ gemologist and report back.
You are posting the results of inappropriate spectrographic instrumentation which positively identify nothing.

Standard gemological instruments, such as a microscope, polariscope, refractometer and UV light would produce solid information we could all interpret.

And furthermore, don't get a pissy attitude with me, not only am I trying to help you identify this material, I'm paying for the bandwidth you are using!

I'm terribly sorry if I mistook your meaning( my English is not good, I take out the wrong meaning of the words sometimes) and I appreciate all your help.
Finding a lab to identity the stones is exactly what I'm trying to do and Nathan is helping me contacting GIA HongKong right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:10 am 
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Stephen Challener wrote:
roshanravan wrote:
actually i find those results inconclusive for many reasons that i have stated before

If you wouldn't mind, I'd appreciate you elaborating on that a bit. I've used EDS analysis in geological research before, and though it does have limitations, identifying that a spot is largely silica is pretty much directly in its wheelhouse. You don't even have to worry about the ratios between elements or oxidation states as you would in separating some minerals because all it can detect is silicon, which doesn't leave much leeway.
Aside from that, the photo of doubling seems unambiguous as to its crystalline nature, since ADR won't do that.

I'll admit I'm not sure what the XRD result is showing (perhaps he meant XRF?) but I'm not really taking that into account anyway.


Eh Duhh:
zbhjzm wrote:
The XRF analysis was done by a handheld metal analyzer , It turned out that this kind of equipment is unsuitable for analyse the inclusions because the exposed tips of the inclusions are so tiny.So the result is incorrect.

I'm sorry if I mistook the meaning of Barbra.
I merely wanna to clear that I'm just a collector, not a seller, I got the specimens from someone else. I can only guarantee that I didn't fake any evidence such as pictures and test results. Everyone can have their own opinion about Whether or not the evidences are enough to prove that the stones are real.


roshanravan wrote:
zbhjzm wrote:
Yes, the SEM-EDS analysis can not tell if the stone is natural quartz, but it is the only way to identify the inclusions as gold without damage the stone. So, I'll find an Inspection Center to identify if it is quartz.


my friend this is why i am trying to explain, the X-ray spectroscopy is not useful here unless the metal (in this case Gold) is part of the chemical formula, like Identifying Paraiba tourmaline due to the presence of copper (Cu) and manganese (Mn) in chemical formula, in order for you to get more conclusive result you should use destructive test, like testing powder specimen which needs proper sampling.

also regarding the shape of the gold inclusion in your photos, it's been years since i have studied Inclusions and mostly we pay attention to those in Ruby, Sapphire, Emeralds to identify the origin the rest is not very practical in jewelry business, so my knowledge might be little bit rusty! but something is bothering me! specially the wire shape of the inclusions. you know gemologist are like detectives they have to check all the facts.
Natural Quartz is crystallizes in a hydrothermal environment and ore minerals like gold, silver and copper can be present and become part of the inclusions but the thing is in that environment having a tube/wire shape or as i have seen in one of your pictures flat Wire silver is highly unlikely! specially considering the temperature of the hydrothermal veins also you do not find gold or silver in nature like those wire shapes.

anyway disregard you X-ray spectroscopy results you do not get to the truth this way


............................
@zbhjzm
i do not see any point to continue further discussion about this matter, either get a proper Gemological tools or report from a Lab or proper gemologist, if you want to believe in something and trying to prove it to us it doesn't work like that i don't care if you examine your specimen with even SIMS (most expensive instrument) still result with these machine are not acceptable unless it's done by some one who knows what's he is doing and also sometimes it involves a some destructive tests. for all we know you specimen can be a high silicate ceramic glass with gold coated foil wires!
we tried to explain it to you and then again you insist,

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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:56 am 
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roshanravan wrote:
Stephen Challener wrote:
roshanravan wrote:
actually i find those results inconclusive for many reasons that i have stated before

If you wouldn't mind, I'd appreciate you elaborating on that a bit. I've used EDS analysis in geological research before, and though it does have limitations, identifying that a spot is largely silica is pretty much directly in its wheelhouse. You don't even have to worry about the ratios between elements or oxidation states as you would in separating some minerals because all it can detect is silicon, which doesn't leave much leeway.
Aside from that, the photo of doubling seems unambiguous as to its crystalline nature, since ADR won't do that.

I'll admit I'm not sure what the XRD result is showing (perhaps he meant XRF?) but I'm not really taking that into account anyway.


Eh Duhh:
zbhjzm wrote:
The XRF analysis was done by a handheld metal analyzer , It turned out that this kind of equipment is unsuitable for analyse the inclusions because the exposed tips of the inclusions are so tiny.So the result is incorrect.

I'm sorry if I mistook the meaning of Barbra.
I merely wanna to clear that I'm just a collector, not a seller, I got the specimens from someone else. I can only guarantee that I didn't fake any evidence such as pictures and test results. Everyone can have their own opinion about Whether or not the evidences are enough to prove that the stones are real.


roshanravan wrote:
zbhjzm wrote:
Yes, the SEM-EDS analysis can not tell if the stone is natural quartz, but it is the only way to identify the inclusions as gold without damage the stone. So, I'll find an Inspection Center to identify if it is quartz.


my friend this is why i am trying to explain, the X-ray spectroscopy is not useful here unless the metal (in this case Gold) is part of the chemical formula, like Identifying Paraiba tourmaline due to the presence of copper (Cu) and manganese (Mn) in chemical formula, in order for you to get more conclusive result you should use destructive test, like testing powder specimen which needs proper sampling.

also regarding the shape of the gold inclusion in your photos, it's been years since i have studied Inclusions and mostly we pay attention to those in Ruby, Sapphire, Emeralds to identify the origin the rest is not very practical in jewelry business, so my knowledge might be little bit rusty! but something is bothering me! specially the wire shape of the inclusions. you know gemologist are like detectives they have to check all the facts.
Natural Quartz is crystallizes in a hydrothermal environment and ore minerals like gold, silver and copper can be present and become part of the inclusions but the thing is in that environment having a tube/wire shape or as i have seen in one of your pictures flat Wire silver is highly unlikely! specially considering the temperature of the hydrothermal veins also you do not find gold or silver in nature like those wire shapes.

anyway disregard you X-ray spectroscopy results you do not get to the truth this way


............................
@zbhjzm
i do not see any point to continue further discussion about this matter, either get a proper Gemological tools or report from a Lab or proper gemologist, if you want to believe in something and trying to prove it to us it doesn't work like that i don't care if you examine your specimen with even SIMS (most expensive instrument) still result with these machine are not acceptable unless it's done by some one who knows what's he is doing and also sometimes it involves a some destructive tests. for all we know you specimen can be a high silicate ceramic glass with gold coated foil wires!
we tried to explain it to you and then again you insist,


I've been trying to contact GIA HongKong for a month now, since the IP address from mainland China is blocked by GIA server, I can only ask Nathan to help me contact them , it will take some time. I was planning to post the result after they have done identifying the stone.
See, it's not that I insist on identifying the stones all by myself, it is just the only thing I can do before I get contact with GIA HongKong.


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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:44 am 
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roshanravan wrote:
Stephen Challener wrote:
roshanravan wrote:
Eh Duhh:

I of course read that quote, but I am talking about the EDS (energy dispersive spectroscopy) from the scanning electron microscope, not the XRF results. The XRF was (as we all know) not the appropriate instrument in this instance, but the SEM images are far more compelling. You seem to be confusing the two methods, unless I am misunderstanding you.

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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:09 pm 
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Stephen Challener wrote:
...
I of course read that quote, but I am talking about the EDS (energy dispersive spectroscopy) from the scanning electron microscope, not the XRF results. The XRF was (as we all know) not the appropriate instrument in this instance, but the SEM images are far more compelling. You seem to be confusing the two methods, unless I am misunderstanding you.

Stephen i would be agreeing with you about SEM if it's done properly although there are better ways to do this. but we all are agreeing some thing is off here
at this point it's better to wait till he gets a proper and credible identification or gemological lab report.

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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:32 pm 
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OK - when I first looked at the pictures they did indeed look like gold inclusions to me. But they rang my "looks like a fake" detector for a number of reasons:
1) I had never seen anything like it before.
2) They are incredibly beautiful, so if real I expected they would be all over the literature

Nonetheless, a single example might be something really new.

Then multiple examples were shown. ?????????!!!!!

Then the really weird one that looks like silver tape. also completely different from anything I have ever seen and incredibly beautiful, so 1) and 2) apply again.

So now we have at least 5 examples of something that is incredibly beautiful, never before seen and of 2 different species. The odds against it seem extremely high.

But... so far it does look like it is in quartz. Now if I were to fake something like this could I? I *think* so.... Drill holes, put in metal, fill holes with some sort of polymer or glue (under a vacuum to avoid bubbles. ) Could a gem lab determine it? Certainly.

I even think it might be possible to do low temp chemical vapor deposition (CVD) of quartz to form such structures, which would be a lot harder to detect (and probably a lot more expensive to create.)

Could GIA determine that? I bet they could.

The pieces themselves, even if man made, are very nice, and would make very nice jewelry. I certainly want one.


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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:56 pm 
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dchallener wrote:
... I even think it might be possible to do low temp chemical vapor deposition (CVD) of quartz to form such structures, which would be a lot harder to detect (and probably a lot more expensive to create.).. .

What? Low temp CVD? For quartz? :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:17 pm 
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yeah i did a little searching on the net and it appears to be a thing....


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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:01 am 
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GIA(HK) has received the specimens, the research can finally begin. When the research is done.I'll tell you the result no matter they turn out to be natural or synthetic.


Last edited by zbhjzm on Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:13 am 
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Awesome! This one has been really perplexing, and I can't wait to hear their opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:40 am 
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Stephen Challener wrote:
Awesome! This one has been really perplexing, and I can't wait to hear their opinion.

Me too. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:43 pm 
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zbhjzm wrote:
GIA(HK) has received the specimens, the research can finally begin. When the research is done.I'll tell you the result no matter they turn out to be natural or synthetic.


Super!!! If they turn out to be not created, I think you have a real find!! If not, they are still very very nice. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:17 pm 
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Agreed!


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 Post subject: Re: Hairlike Gold inclusions in Quartz??
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:35 pm 
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zbhjzm wrote:
Stephen Challener wrote:
Awesome! This one has been really perplexing, and I can't wait to hear their opinion.

Me too. :D


Me three!!! :lol:


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