New Mineral Named After GIA’s John Koivula
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 Post subject: Ancient Lapis Bead auction
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:33 am 
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This is a fascinating ebay auction:

HERE

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:28 am 
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Lots of Afghani antiquities.

Kind of have to wonder how they got their hands on these.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:05 am 
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What's the chance that these are actual antiquities? Faking them isn't that hard.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:35 am 
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Very odd piece, reconstructed too. If it is using original pieces shouldn't some museum be trying to conserve this?

My understanding historical antiques can't just be pilfered and sold on a whim?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:28 pm 
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hi xleech

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My understanding historical antiques can't just be pilfered and sold on a whim?


In times of war or upheaval of any kind 'historical antiques' have a way of "dropping" into the pockets or trunks of "relic hunters" and eventually find there way to the highest bidder. Not saying this happened here but it has in the past (look at all the chinese pottery and what not in western countries)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:29 pm 
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Yeah I figured as much, I've seen articles and TV programmes about that sort of stuff. Where completely new discoveries had been clean out in a matter of weeks with some really important historical values.

Just thought it was a bit strange to see it so publically for sale on Ebay, when I thought it was more of a cloak and dagger type trade. Ending up in private collections never to see the day of light again.

Perhaps someone should ask for the provenance of the beads and other associated items. Would be a shame to buy something from this guy then only to have a knock on the door from Interpol or something like that.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:39 pm 
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Personally I would never buy antiquities from ebay or anywhere over the internet, or even from most dealers - there's just too great a chance that if it is real it was looted, or that it's simply a forgery.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:41 pm 
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I suspect this is less than ancient.

These is no evidence of wear. On sites that sell ancient beads, etc. you typically have the ability to really enlarge the items to see their details - can't do that here.

That dangley thing should have been mangled (is that a rhyme?) and show all sorts of wear. Probably would have had chunks out of it if it survived on the necklace.

And they mostly sell single pearls...

IMO

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:29 pm 
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I agree with You Empress No way to me do they look like ancient Lapis beads. the color does look a bit bright

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:37 pm 
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If it comes to it, these could be submitted to expert opinion as anything is. Ancient beads are particularly well documented - used for dating, mapping ancient trade and such.

Would not expect such items to sell based on a picture, no matter how magnified, tossed and turned. What good would that do? How many clients are out there capable to interpret such images (assuming the perfect picture set - a long shot that too) and how many of those - whether such decisions are part of their trade or not - would have any serious reason to give up a perfectly good opportunity to inspect the set of beads in person, as the return policy makes that very much available?

No surprise Afghan antiquities are moving around, and there has been ample time for fakes to catch up. Plenty of time... Plenty of lapis. Could well be the seller doesn't really know either, unless they dug the stuff themselves, and even then... may have no way (i.e. glossy diploma, appropriate career & enforceable experience) to provide marketable proof - whatever that might be for Afghan beads these days.

The 'reconstruction' is quite the norm: beads survive burial, tread does not. The original arrangement of the beads is usually lost, even in the rare occasions where the necklaces were laid flat rather then coiled in a storage-something. New beads are added to make sets of archaic beads appealing... Restringing in a new arrangement isn't much of an issue - museum displays are made that way, there's simply no alternative. Re-composing sets (either from related sources or not) is a more of a problem to look into, and repairs to the old material more so. The description there saying 'no repairs' must be referring to the latter, I suppose.

2c, thinking out loud...


I am guessing that the color there is very much possible and bettered, the shine may be from wet or oiled beads - done sometimes to get through light calcination, or just take cute little pictures, well...

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:29 pm 
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If this is genuine they should have them authenticated by an expert in this field. You can buy these old style Lapis beads in Peshawar, Pakistan.

The only way to make the judgement is to examine them under magnification looking for ware especially around the hole. The gold beads could be scientifically tested. There is a lot of goldsmiths in Bali who can do this type of goldwork.

Below is a photo of etched Carnelian beads which have been authenticated by the British Museum as late centuries AD or early centuries BC. They come from the same area as the necklaces on Ebay. For this type of price you need some authenication on it.

Image
Image

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:23 am 
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anitame wrote:
Personally I would never buy antiquities from ebay or anywhere over the internet, or even from most dealers - there's just too great a chance that if it is real it was looted, or that it's simply a forgery.

do u wish to steal someting personally to satisfy urself?if not,u will have to buy it from somewhere unless someone gift it to you :D

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:00 pm 
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kashmirsapphire wrote:
anitame wrote:
Personally I would never buy antiquities from ebay or anywhere over the internet, or even from most dealers - there's just too great a chance that if it is real it was looted, or that it's simply a forgery.

do u wish to steal someting personally to satisfy urself?if not,u will have to buy it from somewhere unless someone gift it to you :D


No, that was the point. I wouldn't steal it for myself, or buy it from someone else who stole it.


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