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 Post subject: Re: Inconsistancys in gem-A's course notes and assignment qu
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:40 pm 
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I do wish you the best of luck, Simon.
I can understand how you feel disheartened.
I wish I could think of a brilliant new idea, but I think I'm all out of ideas. :|


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 Post subject: Re: Inconsistancys in gem-A's course notes and assignment qu
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:42 pm 
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Thanks Barbra, I will look through it

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 Post subject: Re: Inconsistancys in gem-A's course notes and assignment qu
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:05 pm 
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There are plenty of loose stone suppliers in Hatton Garden - I was in two of the biggest (Wards and Levy) and a number of smaller ones as well as on the phone to Marcia Lanyon in the last week. Then add to that a number of online dealers - myself included - and I reckon there are not much short of 100 dealers, could even be more.

Learning about markets, values etc is not something that can be taught in a classroom - you have to constantly check online prices, either be on the ground or talking to people who are on the ground, and read everything you can get your hands on to stay abreast. Plus looking at a lot of stones to work out why stone x costs £100 and stone b costs £10,000. As soon as a course is given it's out of date.

If you are going to buy stones at source then it is very helpful to have the theory there - plus it's interesting in it's own right. The course is Gemmology, not Retail Skills. If I wanted to learn that, then I would go and work in a shop.

If you are rejected from high-end sales jobs because you don't have the spiel, then I would suggest spending time visiting high-end jewellers and listening to what they say to you. Learn the phrases, the tone of voice, how to push without being pushy, how to sound excited about what you are doing. It's not rocket science. Some will be naturally better than others, but everyone can learn to do it. Consider it interview preparation.

It is possible to get a foothold in the industry - if you are prepared to start small, learn wherever you can, cultivate mentors and contacts - because you are inspired by them and learn from them not purely with business interests at heart, network, network, network and keep topping up market and scientific information so you don't get screwed at the buying end. You may well need to start out doing it in your spare-time and stashing away money every month to have some capital, but it is not impossible to work for yourself if it's what you REALLY want to do.

Even Lawrence Graff started out flogging rings door to door in HG.

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 Post subject: Re: Inconsistancys in gem-A's course notes and assignment qu
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:24 pm 
Wow, thanks for the thorough reply.

There are plenty of loose stone suppliers in Hatton Garden - I was in two of the biggest (Wards and Levy) and a number of smaller ones as well as on the phone to Marcia Lanyon in the last week. Then add to that a number of online dealers - myself included - and I reckon there are not much short of 100 dealers, could even be more.

Well, I am Devon-based, so try to get into Hatton Garden for a day every few months-or-so. Having walked into most stores (unless there are side-roads I am not aware of), Holts was the one that always jumped out at me. There are a few loose-stone dealers in that market/emporium area (with the glass cabinets/stalls). In fact, last week I found out that one of the stall owners is my cousin's bf. Small world...

By the way, I have actually met Marcia Lanyon way back when my job search started (late-2008, I think), in Hammersmith, and spoke to her a few weeks ago on the phone. I don't think she hires much, but has given me a few pointers and contacts over the years. Nice lady.

I have multiple emails in my outbox to Levy and Wards. Neither replied. Both are in my first cycle of contacts, so have received three emails from me in the last 3 months already.

Learning about markets, values etc is not something that can be taught in a classroom - you have to constantly check online prices, either be on the ground or talking to people who are on the ground, and read everything you can get your hands on to stay abreast. Plus looking at a lot of stones to work out why stone x costs £100 and stone b costs £10,000. As soon as a course is given it's out of date.

I did 2.5 years in Bangkok, during which I would go to either Maesod or Chanthaburi nearly every weekend. I started to feel I was getting a rep as someone that hung around bothering people, without actually buying any stones, so went less frequently later on.

I keep a huge ongoing spreadsheet of around 60 species/colour/locality-combinations, with current prices at eight well-known online retailers, at ~1ct, ~3ct and ~10ct (if applicable). Started this in 2009, so it's been a big project over the years. Treatments always added too many variables, so I eventually made the chart purely treatment-free (within reason).

If you are going to buy stones at source then it is very helpful to have the theory there - plus it's interesting in it's own right. The course is Gemmology, not Retail Skills. If I wanted to learn that, then I would go and work in a shop.

This is sort-of my point. It is a gemmology course, and as such has a limited scope for employment. "Interesting" is not really enough for 20/30-somethings with £30,000 student debts to pay off (more, if you are an American graduate, I believe), and an absolutely savage graduate job market.

There is more to education that job prospects, of course. But the reality is that academic idealism doesn't put food on the table, nor does it keep student loan creditors off your back.

If you are rejected from high-end sales jobs because you don't have the spiel, then I would suggest spending time visiting high-end jewellers and listening to what they say to you. Learn the phrases, the tone of voice, how to push without being pushy, how to sound excited about what you are doing. It's not rocket science. Some will be naturally better than others, but everyone can learn to do it. Consider it interview preparation.

The sad fact that I have learned is that luxury sales is not what I want to do with my life. It's where 99% of the advertised jobs seem to be available (in sales-only roles), so I've been hitting them hard, but with such little enthusiasm. It's almost the the antithesis of what I had in mind when I started studying gemmology 5 years ago.

My interest in gems has generally been rather spockish. I'm naturally more interested in gemstones from a more scientific perspective (especially optica phenomena etc.), and the vast majority of the luxury sales stores I have been interviewing at barely seem to have any coloured stones anyway. I have never owned a watch, nor worn a piece of jewellery, nor owned a leather wallet, or owned a piece of clothing worth more than £50. I've never even owned a suit. I've been able to afford such things at times over the years, but its all of no interest to me. Just seems like a load of bollocks really. Is it possible to fake that enthusiasm for luxury goods? Possibly, but I feel filthy doing it. At least as a Soho rent-boy I'd actually make some good money while going against all my principles.

Frankly, when ever I enter the really high-end/luxury retailer, I feel intimidated. I just don't fit or belong there. I feel 10000x more at ease deck in khaki shorts, looking at grubby rocks in a dirty market on the other side of the planet. Formality is something I just can't cope with.

Some people are just not 'luxury' people; especially if the luxury being sold has almost no overlap with what they are interested in (i.e. gem-related science/optics, rough material etc.). I will force myself though, as a means to an end, but I feel the stores can really feel my awkwardness at interviews. I'm just so out of my comfort zone.

It is possible to get a foothold in the industry - if you are prepared to start small, learn wherever you can, cultivate mentors and contacts - because you are inspired by them and learn from them not purely with business interests at heart, network, network, network and keep topping up market and scientific information so you don't get screwed at the buying end. You may well need to start out doing it in your spare-time and stashing away money every month to have some capital, but it is not impossible to work for yourself if it's what you REALLY want to do.

Even Lawrence Graff started out flogging rings door to door in HG.


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 Post subject: Re: Inconsistancys in gem-A's course notes and assignment qu
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:50 am 
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The FGA isn't designed to get people into a job though... and plenty of the people studying do so because they are interested in the subject.

As you have found out, you don't need an FGA to work in a shop, and an FGA alone isn't likely to land you a job in a lab.

Looking at people I know in the business they seem to have travelled 3 paths:

- 7th son of a 7th son in the jewellery business
- people working in retail whose employers are sponsoring them to do the FGA
- people working in other jobs who do an FGA with an eye to the future and then start small and gradually work towards making gems their full-time job.

Personally I've opted for the latter. Even if you start out flogging cheap stuff on eBay you can slowly build up some capital and lots of contacts without any real need for capital and with almost zero overheads: I know a 15 year old working from his bedroom who is making a tidy amount doing just that - he's buying better stones as he can afford to and making better profits. By the time he graduates from University I imagine he will have a pretty viable business. He started with an investment of £50.

You can set up a website using wordpress and then move it to your own url, you can link up a paypal account and have an online store. It's not rocket science and it doesn't have to cost much either. Cataloguing will destroy your social life for a while but that is about it.

I'd love to be selling the stuff that Mr Graff and Mrs Mousseiff have in their windows, but for the forseeable future that isn't going to happen, so I adjust my expectations. It's not always easy, it can be really demoralising at times, but I just remind myself that plenty of other people have trod the same path and are now doing okay.

You are obviously bright and capable, you just seem to conjure up an awful lot of obstacles that don't need to be there. So, quit moaning and get on with it if it's what you really want to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Inconsistancys in gem-A's course notes and assignment qu
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:01 pm 
gempyrate wrote:
The FGA isn't designed to get people into a job though... and plenty of the people studying do so because they are interested in the subject.

I'm 'interested' in English medieval history. I read books on it, join historical forums and write historical essays. I don't spend £5-10K on a course on medieval history.

IMHO a professional qualification of non-neglible expense (time and money) should expect at least some career progression.


As you have found out, you don't need an FGA to work in a shop, and an FGA alone isn't likely to land you a job in a lab.

So why is the course given such a scientific slant, and yet doesn't go far enough to enter scientific gemmology?

As I said before, the FGA finds itself stuck in no-man's-land. However, with the Kingston Univertsity business, and the recent degree talk, it sounds like this is something that has been noticed. Let's hope that something can eventually form a bridge between the FGA and the labs.


Looking at people I know in the business they seem to have travelled 3 paths:

- 7th son of a 7th son in the jewellery business
- people working in retail whose employers are sponsoring them to do the FGA
- people working in other jobs who do an FGA with an eye to the future and then start small and gradually work towards making gems their full-time job.

I am in the third group (having taught English/Physics for 90% of the last 4 years). I hoped my two years trying to network in Thailand (Chanthaburi, Silom, Mae Sod etc.) would have led somewhere, but it never worked out.

I actually identified these three rough groups many years ago (1 family, 2 sponsored, 3 self-employed). There is nothing here to change my view that an unconnected, entry-level candidate, who is not currently employed in the industry, would be better off not doing a gemmology course. They'd be better off begging their way into retail (perhaps as an intern). Experience trumps qualification every time.


Personally I've opted for the latter. Even if you start out flogging cheap stuff on eBay you can slowly build up some capital and lots of contacts without any real need for capital and with almost zero overheads: I know a 15 year old working from his bedroom who is making a tidy amount doing just that - he's buying better stones as he can afford to and making better profits. By the time he graduates from University I imagine he will have a pretty viable business. He started with an investment of £50.

I don't doubt this for a second, but we are not talking about jobs here. We are talking about entrepreneurial enterprises. For me, jobs are a defined contract length, salary, working hours and benefits. You know exactly how much you'll be bringing in each month (after automatic tax and student loan deductions). As Jason showed in the other thread, a business can lead to a job, but then again maybe the FGA investment would have still been better spent actually starting the business (stones, website, buying trips) than being spent on doing an expensive course that doesn't mention price, appraisal and markets.

Anyway, it's suitability to obtaining jobs (esp. for someone with no industry work experience), not setting up a business, where I have questions the value in the FGA.


You can set up a website using wordpress and then move it to your own url, you can link up a paypal account and have an online store. It's not rocket science and it doesn't have to cost much either. Cataloguing will destroy your social life for a while but that is about it.

Again, we are talking setting up a business here, not obtaining of stable, reliable, contracted employment. My arguement doesn't concern entrepreneurship.

I'd love to be selling the stuff that Mr Graff and Mrs Mousseiff have in their windows, but for the forseeable future that isn't going to happen, so I adjust my expectations. It's not always easy, it can be really demoralising at times, but I just remind myself that plenty of other people have trod the same path and are now doing okay.

See above.

You are obviously bright and capable, you just seem to conjure up an awful lot of obstacles that don't need to be there. So, quit moaning and get on with it if it's what you really want to do.

I assume you actually mean "stop moaning and get on with starting a business", as in job terms there is nothing to "get on" with (the Gem-A LinkedIn careers section, much heralded upon its inception, has been an empty tumbleweed zone for over a month now).

For the record, I do think Gem-A are trying to turn the corner on this (e.g. the monthly career talks look a good idea, and I hope to get over to London for them). Additionally, there are signs that an advanced bridge course is on the horizon in some form, which might help place the FGA better in a specific part of the job market (i.e. labs).

But if self-employment is indeed the only way, this should be made clearer to the 'newbies'. The 2007 me certainly didn't realise that I was about to train for a job (i.e. "non-lab gemmologist") that doesn't actually exist!


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