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 Post subject: Gem-As developing of a Bachelor degree in gemmology?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:21 pm 
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I hear that Gem-A is developing an advanced course in gemmology involving a university degree, =D> as I understand it it is a Bachelor, anyone knows more about this? Is any university involved? I understand that the plan is to start this course during autumn 2013.

This is ofcourse the only way to go when developing gemmology as a science and I am surprised so few universities offers gemmology courses and when they do it is on quite a basic level. I know that the university of Nantes in France and the Moscow state university offers higher degrees in gemmology, how come this is not the case in the english speaking world? Have institutes such as GIA, GEM-A and others prevented this because of wanting to stay as the authotities? True to tell, the Diploma in gemmology is quite far from being as scientific as mineralogy, geology, chemistry or any other neighbouring science studied at a university at the same length of time. It is a recognision of gemmology that the Diploma in gemmology, FGA, has been upgraded to level 6 and the DGA to a 5 in the british edu system but what is your thoughts on what would be the content of a good internationally recognised universitydegree, BA or MA, in gemmology?


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 Post subject: Re: Gem-As developing of a Bachelor degree in gemmology?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:20 pm 
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One thing I got on top of my mind- there should be more of advanced lab equipment hands on experience, more mineralogy, chemistry, extended gem formation and geological processes, hopefully more of valuation and jewellery as well...Ok enough for now

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 Post subject: Re: Gem-As developing of a Bachelor degree in gemmology?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:25 pm 
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Haven't heard anymore than I read on the Gem-a Graduates on Linked-In... Sounds very interesting :) I mean would be nice to accompany the foundation degree "ädelstensteknik" with a bachelor ;) What international degree the diploma could translate to I would probably say bachelor. However as I think the course is dependent on more factors than just the finale test... For example how much time you spend studying and how well you can comunicate with your tutor... I would say that it could reach both lower and higher than a bachelor ;)

Sincerly Karl Springe FGA


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 Post subject: Re: Gem-As developing of a Bachelor degree in gemmology?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:20 pm 
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Kane - you mention geology, chemistry, mineralogy, all crucial areas for a gemmologist but are they part of gemmology or just areas gemmologists need to know about? What differs gemmologists from geologists and mineralogists is that we focus on the minority of the geolgical processes and environments that creates Gemquality material, we need to know how natural gems are created and how to distinguish these stones from artificial ones. We need to know about all kinds of treatments, from simple dying or backings to advanced diffusion, lasered, hpht, composite, irradiated, annealed, etched, glassfilled and whatever is done to gemstone materials and how to separate these from natural and untreated. This is where gemmology becomes a science. We identify natural, synthetic and treated gemstones. Gemmologists also prospect and investigate potential gemstonedeposits.
Concerning many of the more advanced gemological instruments such as Raman, FTIR, UVVISNIR are machines thats just showing graphs which are comparable to other graphs in a database, not much science in using them, but a deeper understanding of spectroscopy, the nature of light and absorption together with how certain elements and distortions cause absorption fits well within gemology. The X-ray and luminiscence reading instruments requires more practical hands on experience but are still not very complicated to learn how to use and get a reading from.
Grading and Valuation is important areas within the gem and jewellerybusiness but is it really a part of gemmology? I´d say that atleast valuation is a science on its own.

Yes Karl, the "Ädelstensteknik" (Gemstonetechnology) program offered by Luleå Technichal University in Sweden is a good two year course including basic geology, lapidary, jewellerymaking, chemistry, gemstonegeology, mineralogy and 20 weeks of gemmology. As the courses is spread out on different institutions within the university and that they do not have any research within the area prevents them from examining BAs. There are discussions going on about this and on adding a third year.

And as I know that you had a fantastic teacher year two I am sure you have good inputs for any future programs within the area....


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 Post subject: Re: Gem-As developing of a Bachelor degree in gemmology?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:07 pm 
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Jan you asked for an opinion and I gave it... Btw equipment usage may be simple but not when you've never seen it, plus you could use it later when applaying for job in a lab. Mineralogy and geology would be useful for prospecting which lies within Gemmologist field as you said yourself. I remember that gem creating processes were described rather vaguely in the notes... Valuation and jewellery would actually be very useful for most graduates when looking for job as this kind of knowledge is important for retail sector which provides most employment opportunities around here. Besides as you also said gemmology is narrower discipline so if you want it to have a university level you should make it broader in my opinion... If you have some other ideas of what should be included I don't mind seeing them here.

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 Post subject: Re: Gem-As developing of a Bachelor degree in gemmology?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:30 pm 
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Concerning many of the more advanced gemological instruments such as Raman, FTIR, UVVISNIR are machines thats just showing graphs which are comparable to other graphs in a database, not much science in using them,


I believe that statement is rather naive.
To begin with, these are not gemological tools, but instruments developed for sophisticated chemical and physical analysis which can be modified with data bases for gemological use.

There may not be too much science involved in using a database one has no understanding of, but one would benefit from a solid background in geochemistry and geophysics to properly interpret data, especially data which may be erroneous.

Were you aware that the GIA hires geochemists and geophysisists with masters degrees and preferably with PhDs to do their advanced testing? They certainly do not consider advanced testing with Raman, FTIR, UVVISNIR, etc., a function of simply installing database software and turning it on.

Also, to my knowledge, the Gem-A was developing a course in concert with Kingston University which would qualify for a BSc which has subsequently been abandoned.


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 Post subject: Re: Gem-As developing of a Bachelor degree in gemmology?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:08 am 
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As I understand it, the current FGA Diploma course has been upgraded by the UK government as being "Level 6". This is the equivalent of a Bachelors degree in the ratings system if I'm not mistaken.

That seems a bit high to me given the disparity between the course contents and what it takes to earn a Bachelors degree the usual way.


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 Post subject: Re: Gem-As developing of a Bachelor degree in gemmology?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:33 pm 
It's not back-datable, so those already graduated will stay Level 5.

Unless the course has becomming significantly more demanding, it should stay Level 5. No way is the work-load or difficulty at the level of a full Bachelor's degree.

I'm not sure about the scientific element. Will it truely bridge the gap between FGA and the lab? Or, as Barbra has already said, will labs still continue to hire only high-level science MSC/PHD graduates coming from the other direction?

I could see it ending up in further no-mans-land. Too specific and scientific to be employable in the retail/commercial-dominated mainstream, but not advanced enough to prepare for those few scientific gemmology positions that do exist.

Would much prefer it to go in a more pragmatic route in-line with what retail employers want. And that's coming from someone primarily interested in gem science.


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 Post subject: Re: Gem-As developing of a Bachelor degree in gemmology?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:40 pm 
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Yes Kane geology and mineralogy is an imoprtant part for the understanding of gemstones, as is the principles of valuation for the jewellery appraiser. All things you mention is important for people who want to work with gemstones and jewellry.
I agree with you Barbara that my statement concerning the advanced instruments was quite simplified, I know that the mayor labs have very high demands on the qualifications of their staff, they look for people with BAs or MAs in the areas you mention. I still stand by the point that when a graph is shown it is not difficult to understand the readings and draw conclusions, just like for any accountant, it is important to know how to put the data right into a computerprogram but few accountants need to understand the physics behind the system. This was different when computures was a new invention.
Ofcourse practical experience of the advanced tools is a good thing and if this can be achived during a gemmologycourse it is great, in a longer universitylevel course it is taken for granted that it is included. A good thing for gemmology in general is that several of the instruments that a few years ago was far beyond economical limits for most now comes in versions that are relatively cheap and also made specifically for gemstones (though I am aware that with price and ease comes limits...). I belive that these tools will keep on getting better, cheaper, smaller and easier to read so that again, within a few years, the traditional refractometer will be fully mastered by fewer people than those who can get a reading from any raman or ftir spectrometer.
This devolopment is ofcourse something good (even though there is a risk of overtrusting the instruments). I still do not think it is difficult to get a reading but ofcourse the person drawing conclusions from the readings have to know what they are describing and then it is more important for a course in gemmology to go deeper into the structural or chemical changes that a material can be exposed to, naturally or artificially, and to understand how these changes may effect a crystal structure or how a certain element might migrate through a crystal and how it might cause colors.
I also agree with you Kane that I think that the average person who want to study gemstones aims at a job that includes both identification of gemstones and metals as well as dating of jewellery objects and valuation of jewellery and gems. To have a paper proving experience of certain instruments is an advantage.

There is a lot to know to be a Gemmologist if the demands on a Gemmologist is knowledge within all areas from geology, mineralogy, chemistry, gemmology, metallurgy, art & design history, judging the quality of the work of a piece of jewellry, judging different designs and qualities of cuts, finding a market and applying a price to both new and antique objects though I do think it is possible (and desirable) to put together a 3 or 4 (5?) year long education covering most of the areas mentioned above.
Any thoughts on prerequirements for such a course? Should anyone be able to apply or would previous experience / knowledge be demanded by aplicants? Would "gemmology" be the right title for the course?

I still do not know more about the Gem-A plans but if it is right as Africanuck suggests that the update to level 6 (wich it will say on diplomas from 2013 if I understood it right) is equivalent to a BA, it seems like the inflation on university educations is spreading quite rapidly, the FGA is in my experience far less scientific than a BA.
Even though gemmology does not seem to play by the same rules as related subjects I think this valuation/appraisal is far to high.


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 Post subject: Re: Gem-As developing of a Bachelor degree in gemmology?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:29 pm 
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Kyriakin wrote:
It's not back-datable, so those already graduated will stay Level 5.

Unless the course has becomming significantly more demanding, it should stay Level 5. No way is the work-load or difficulty at the level of a full Bachelor's degree.

I'm not sure about the scientific element. Will it truely bridge the gap between FGA and the lab? Or, as Barbra has already said, will labs still continue to hire only high-level science MSC/PHD graduates coming from the other direction?

I could see it ending up in further no-mans-land. Too specific and scientific to be employable in the retail/commercial-dominated mainstream, but not advanced enough to prepare for those few scientific gemmology positions that do exist.

Would much prefer it to go in a more pragmatic route in-line with what retail employers want. And that's coming from someone primarily interested in gem science.



ha ha! clearly you have never taken a BA in england ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Gem-As developing of a Bachelor degree in gemmology?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:57 pm 
Nope, I did a BSc in Physics... and I got a Douglas 3rd.

It's almost an achievement to get a 3rd normally, at just 3% of the total graduates get them, but they are quite common in Physics and Maths. I was absent from two of my finals though, and thus scored two zeros. Without them I'd probably have got a 2:2 (which is a defendable grade in Physics or Maths).

My mate didn't even get a third. He got a 'pass', which is almost a mathematical impossibility. Frankly, he took so many horse tranquilisers that reaching adulthood was an achievement; and a crap degree was merely a bonus.

Either way, Physics is brutal. In order to prepare the top grads for the head-stretching world of high-end Physics, the Bachelors has to be disproportionately difficult compared to say, a Bachelors in Geography. Of course that means us mere mortals get left behind in Physics classes which are aimed to stretch the elite (who are the people that will change the world, while the rest of us become High School Physics teachers).

Should have done history/management, spent 3 years completely smashed, and walked out with the obligatory scraped 2:1 after copying something from Wikipedia.


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 Post subject: Re: Gem-As developing of a Bachelor degree in gemmology?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:27 am 
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Agree that the FGA is not equivalent to a degree - unless there has been some serious dumbing down in terms of what is required for a degree (would not suprise me).

I always felt the FGA was on a par with the old A levels - not the modern ones which appear to be barely worth the paper they are written on.

I will be very interested to see the course content when it is published. (Let's hope it is considerably more rigorous than the JTV Gem Basics thing... :roll:)

Regarding content, I would agree with Kane - although I'm not so sure I would include valuation. To my mind that is a separate thing altogether best covered independently. I imagine/hope it will have a lot in common with most Geology/Earth Sciences degree, but with more of a focus on gem-rocks rather than hunks of dull tedious stuff.

I may be considered a luddite or something of that ilk, but I can't help feeling that the more sophisticated and less user controlled the equipment (ie press the red button and the answer pops up on a screen), the more important a proper grounding in chemistry, crystallography and physics becomes.

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 Post subject: Re: Gem-As developing of a Bachelor degree in gemmology?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:52 pm 
In terms of amount/level, I'd say it's about the first year of University soft-Science degree.

In terms of pure Science, it's almost nowhere at all. Only the Diploma chapter on the causes of colour (band gaps, and the like) is what you might call heavy Science.


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 Post subject: Re: Gem-As developing of a Bachelor degree in gemmology?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:17 pm 
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I was just trying to add something to each side of the course- scientific one and practical-employable one, in the end we will see what comes out... Btw isn't it interesting that all education levels are falling? Where's that progress?

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