Post subject: Why it's hard to buy/sell gems online...
Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 10:25 am
Valued Contributor
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:00 pm Posts: 461 Location: Washington DC
Here are four pictures of the same stone, an unheated tanzanite. The camera settings are the same and all four pictures are lit by natural daylight through the window. The only post-processing is sharpening and cropping. I changed the angle of the lighting and the backgrounds, nothing else. I would say the one with the orange background is most accurate.
There's been a lot of discussion on a consumer forum about vendors using inaccurate photos, but I doubt that this is done on purpose very often, especially by precision cutters. Even for someone like me with a photography background and nice gear, it can be really difficult or impossible to get the color just right. Also, I tend to use the same set-up for all of my photos, it's too time-consuming to dial in every single stone I photograph. As you can tell from the dust and fingerprints I don't like to spend a ton of time on my pictures.
In some sense, all of these photos are accurate in that the stone can resemble all of them depending on lighting and viewing angle. Which should I use to sell it? It can be a tough line between showing the stone at its best and not creating unrealistic expectations in the buyer. I like the customer to be pleasantly surprised, but I admit that sometimes I've only been able to get pictures that make the stone look better than it does in hand. When this happens I try to explain it in the written description.
Post subject: Re: Why it's hard to buy/sell gems online...
Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 12:07 pm
Gold Member
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:14 pm Posts: 1383 Location: Royal Oak, Michigan US
Well done, Bob. Many faceters face the same dilemma. Lucky for you that you have an existing body of knowledge in the photography field to speed you along. The rest of us blokes just struggle along with our work.
Post subject: Re: Why it's hard to buy/sell gems online...
Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 1:21 pm
Moderator
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:06 pm Posts: 2267 Location: Chapel Hill, NC / Toronto, ON
Hmm...this is a tough question. The fact that there's some lighting in which the stone turns reddish-clear is something that's definitely worth mentioning to a prospective buyer. But, if the orange background picture (#2) is what the stone normally looks like, I'd say use that picture, and then have a smaller picture on your listing that shows different lighting conditions. That way, the buyer gets a good preview on what the stone will normally look like, but you're also disclosing other possibilities based on lighting.
Post subject: Re: Why it's hard to buy/sell gems online...
Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 1:55 pm
Gold Member
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:44 pm Posts: 1079 Location: Washington State
bobsiv wrote:
There's been a lot of discussion on a consumer forum about vendors using inaccurate photos, but I doubt that this is done on purpose very often, especially by precision cutters.
The consumer forums, (that's plural, since they are ALL this way), are populated by a handful of people who are pseudo experts and feel that it is their duty to "help" newbies by spouting their version of the truth and defending those newbies against the evil VENDOR, (and they do actually do this with regard to the typical e-bay "junk is a treasure" dealers). They have a modicum of experience in viewing gems at gems shows, etc., but have little or no experience in dealing with gems on a day to day basis in person or anything else which would lead them to having an "expert" status, (other than looking at lots of pictures of gems online). These "experts" are not going to change, are not ever going to admit that they don't always know what they're talking about and will always have an opinion, (usually negative), about the pictures of any given stone other than museum pieces and then they will usually comment in a high brow tone about how they'd never buy that stone because of a...window, off center culet, gray overtone, etc.
This leads one to the inevitable conclusion that you should be prepared to be answering any questions asked by a prospective buyer as if you are talking to a forum full of people. It even helps to ask the curious buyer if they have started a thread anywhere so that you might be at least aware of what's being said and so answer questions which are not being asked by the buyer. The forums will not usually be privy to your explanations regarding color, clarity or other gem features, as they are typically too long winded and the "experts" would not believe those explanations anyway. The buyer WILL probably pay some attention to your written descriptions and will often be convinced to at least buy the stone to have a look at it, (often keeping it, if the price and actual attractiveness are at least as good as your description). The moral of this little story is that keeping an eye on the forums, (while ignoring the pseudo experts), will help with making good contacts with buyers who understand that the real experts are the people producing the gems being sold, (at least with the custom cutting crowd), and that pictures can tell too many different stories to be trusted as the final word on whether a stone is worth buying or not.
bobsiv wrote:
In some sense, all of these photos are accurate in that the stone can resemble all of them depending on lighting and viewing angle. Which should I use to sell it?
This is easy, use them all. If you send a person the images that you've shown here, along with a short explanation, you will go long ways toward having a totally informed client, who is not expecting their little bundle of beauty to look the same way it does on their hand as it does in the museum quality image that they based their purchase on. This also has the secondary benefit of weeding out those people whose expectations can never be met with reality. I'm sure that you've met them, the ones who expect their gems to be bright and colorful at every viewing angle and even in the dark.
Post subject: Re: Why it's hard to buy/sell gems online...
Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 2:24 pm
Platinum Member
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:20 am Posts: 2756 Location: Southern California, U.S.A.
Good examples, Bob, but facts don’t matter to some of those folks. They have the utterly mistaken idea that a static 2-dimensional image can always somehow accurately depict a 3-dimensional object that changes appearance with every movement or light source. And that’s not factoring in big differences in computer monitors or the fact that not all gem sellers are accomplished photographers.
We all want customers to be delighted when they see our stones in 3-D but the photography process can be absolutely frustrating. As you say, some gems end up looking better in images than in the hand and the opposite is also true. I have some gorgeous stones that defy every attempt I’ve made to photograph them. Cameras vary in their ability to depict certain colors. Mine adds ugly browns to lovely orange stones like spessartite and the topaz known as Imperial. It has problems with some other colors too, especially some shades of blue and green.
I don’t know the long-term solution. Adding written explanations about images can help but often consumers don’t pay attention to them.
Post subject: Re: Why it's hard to buy/sell gems online...
Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 8:33 am
Valued Contributor
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:00 pm Posts: 461 Location: Washington DC
I see that a few of us travel in the same online forum circles. The question of which photo to use was rhetorical, this stone is already spoken for. Like about 90% of my stones, it went to a repeat customer that I've established some trust with. In my opinion, the best way to get around judging stones by their pictures is to find a reputable dealer and ask them the right questions. This is what I do when I buy rough online and I find it works a lot better than asking for hand shots or different angles, light sources, etc.
Post subject: Re: Why it's hard to buy/sell gems online...
Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 12:08 pm
Gemology Online Veteran
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:18 am Posts: 595 Location: Madrid, Spain
Hi folks, don't forget also about another problem for on-line gem selling - the clarity. In every photo the stone is enlarged very significantly in comparison to its real size, that means that all inclusions are much more visible! It's a REAL problem for many natural gems...
Other point - unless you use video, the pictures are static and they doesn't transmit the magic of scintillation...
Post subject: Re: Why it's hard to buy/sell gems online...
Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 12:14 pm
Gold Member
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:44 pm Posts: 1079 Location: Washington State
bobsiv wrote:
...better than asking for hand shots or different angles, light sources, etc.
Hand shots never quite have the same impact when they are taken on a rough guy's hand. I actually had one client once tell me that I needed to use better hand lotion and paid no attention to the sapphire in the picture at all.
I have a huge advantage here being able to model my own hands while Tom takes the shots, although Roger takes better care of his hands than I do! The nice lady who does my periodic "no polish" manicures hates me.
My desk is at a window and so is Tom's. When Tom is processing the photos, he has the stone beside him in natural light. When I approve the shot and enter it into the database I check it again. We don't choose the prettiest photo, but the one that looks closest to what we see right out of the gate. If there's significant shift we'll take other photos to capture that but most stones have a "face" that represents them pretty well.
It's important to me that the photos aren't quite as nice as the gems. I want the initial reaction opening the box to be "wow! It's nicer than I expected."
Post subject: Re: Why it's hard to buy/sell gems online...
Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 3:11 am
Gemology Online Veteran
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:18 am Posts: 595 Location: Madrid, Spain
Lisa Elser wrote:
It's important to me that the photos aren't quite as nice as the gems. I want the initial reaction opening the box to be "wow! It's nicer than I expected."
Good point, that's exactly what happens with sphalerites, no way to make photo better than the reality!
Post subject: Re: Why it's hard to buy/sell gems online...
Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 4:55 pm
Gold Member
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:04 pm Posts: 1642 Location: Walnut Creek, CA
I remember I once read a thread where a super-expert had been able to detect extinction in a sapphire... cabochon cut. But who cares, anyway if the stone is not mine, it has an ugly gray/brown mask by default. Not to talk about half-half extinction. And that tilt window on that fluorite? The cutter is clearly an incompetent...
More seriously, even if I'm not a vendor AND I'm photography challenged... If you have to take all those pictures in different light setting, if you are in business seriously (aka doing this for a living or it's a significant amount of income) you'd need to charge for that time, so the stone would get more expensive. It would make sense only for an expensive stone where ~one hour of your time would be a small % of the total price, I guess. If a customer asks about that 125$ garnet for a picture on the hand in natural daylight, one at high mag to check inclusions, one under CFC lights, and one under incandescent light, plus a video, well...
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