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 Post subject: Re: paraiba tourmaline value questions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:04 pm 
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In the pics I posted here.....this is the color a paraiba tourmaline SHOULD have, to make it a worthwhile investment.
The top pic is Brazilian paraiba, the middle pic is heated brazilian apatite...hence the name "paraiba apatite", and the last photo is a Cobalt spinel. Those are hues and saturations cut from the same cloth as real Paraiba tourmaline. Anything less, and your just paying for a name, and not the gemstone itself
It's no different than emeralds. Generally speaking, to be called an "emerald" one must have a certain range of criteria that must be met.
GIA says....
"Gem experts differ on the degree of green that makes one stone an emerald and another stone a less-expensive green beryl. Some people in the trade tend to give the name emerald to any green beryl colored by chromium. But to most gemologists, gemological laboratories, and colored stone dealers, it is more correct to call a stone green beryl when its color is "too light" for it to be classified as emerald. Even among that group, however, there's a difference of opinion about what's considered "too light."

Regardless of whether it has chromium or not, the mitigating factor deciding it's fate, is determined through other factors such as it's hue and especially it's level of saturation. If it has to light a color, then it's a green beryl, even if it has chromium as it's main chromophore. It's based on the stones color, not the chemical content.
This same example can, and should be applied to Paraiba tourmaline. It could be the fugliest stone you have ever seen, but if it happens to have copper present, regardless of how it affects the stones hue, tone, and saturation, it will still become this overly priced, over-hyped "special" stone, that some dummy will pay way to much for.

[sarcastic tone].."It may look like a pile of sh*t, but those copper molecules make it all the better"[end sarcastic tone]
Paraiba tourmaline should be held to basically the same parameters as emerald, with only the stones having the nicest hue, tone, and saturation, being allowed to call themselves "Paraiba". Everything else should be known as "cuprian". Paraiba tourmaline lost it's appeal many years ago.


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 Post subject: Re: paraiba tourmaline value questions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:06 pm 
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Thanks for your insight Jason,

Although i believe you are missing a certain point.

Yes,certain gems can be more expensive based on where they come from and the origin.Like burma rubies,or mogok emeralds.Sure there were a lot of emeralds found in brazil which has the exact top level color and saturation that mogok has but still commanded a lesser price due to their origin.Same goes to zambian emeralds or mozambique rubies etc.

Also another point you are missing is;
I'm sure there will be someone in bangkok whos willing to pay the price i have in my mind mainly because of the origin.There are thousands of dealers and i will visit every single one of them since im a hustler(already set up meetings with 5 big guys).
Based on their answers,i might modify the price.

Unlike colorless diamonds which have prices based on rapaport,colored gems or colored diamonds doesnt have a specific price list.Therefore it all depends on what dealer is willing to pay for a certain stone,how much revenue he can make out from it,if he has a customer might be interested only because of origin etc etc. I know for sure that japanese dealers buy paraiba ONLY from brazil,not from any other source since they believe brazil is the original source and any other source wouldnt be real paraiba.

Value depends on how much people are willing to pay for the certain item.Just because you arent willing to give fraction of the price i'm asking(and im willing to go way lower than that),doesnt mean that NO ONE will pay for the price i'm asking.Not every dealer has your connections to paraiba,have you thought of that?

I'm aware of the fact that my stone isnt the best,its medium quality at best.Although in this today's,anything has a buyer,just like people buy glass filled rubies,irritated blue diamonds,I3 diamondse,etc


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 Post subject: Re: paraiba tourmaline value questions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:48 pm 
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I really don't think Jason is missing the point.
He is looking at the situation as an experienced buyer and seller.

You are looking at the situation from the standpoint of someone without a lot of industry experience who hopes you have inherited a windfall. I as well, hope you find a buyer willing to pay big bucks for origin.

Please report back after speaking to some of the "big guys" :)

Sidebar: Mogok emeralds? I think you may be thinking Colombian.


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 Post subject: Re: paraiba tourmaline value questions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:15 am 
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Sorry i meant muzo.
I still stand behind what i said. If we have 2 equal quality emeralds,colombian will command premium due to origin.
So we already have an example in trade that dealers pay extra for the origin.

Thats my point and yes,i will ask double the price for my paraiba compared to mozambique ones of similar quality since we already have a clear example of another stone getting premium DUE to origin.

Jason said its stupid to pay extra because of origin,well people do for decades. Why it wouldnt be for paraiba?

P.s bangkok gem show of 2016,paraibas of all quality/sizes were flying off the shelves.


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 Post subject: Re: paraiba tourmaline value questions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:37 pm 
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That is true.
If 2 stones are comparable quality, the one with the a coveted origin will be sold for more.
But, if the emerald from Pakistan is superior in appearance to the one from Colombia, it will also sell at a premium.

We are all waiting to hear all about your experiences in the gem trenches. Keep us in the loop myrica.


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 Post subject: Re: paraiba tourmaline value questions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:46 pm 
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Always easier to go down in price later than to go up in price after it's sold. As long as you're not in a hurry might as well give it a go.


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 Post subject: Re: paraiba tourmaline value questions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:56 am 
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I'm kinda in a hurry actually ahahhaa.
I gave the stone to AIGS yesterday,due to long weekend,ill get it back at 31th of July. They said they cant guarantee origin which i know.Some paraiba's doesnt give clear indication of origin based on what i read on GIA.

Time to cut these red turkish diaspore's i have.


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 Post subject: Re: paraiba tourmaline value questions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:05 am 
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Good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: paraiba tourmaline value questions
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:24 pm 
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A hello with some opinions on the prices of copper bearing tourmaline.

1, The blessed name paraiba was not given to all copper bearing tourmaline in the green to cyan to purplish blue range by the commity. It also had to have "appropriate" levels of tone, satuation and brightness. I believe the "appropriate" range should be found by looking at material produced at the original site in Paraiba Brazil. The picture is complicated by the fact that the original deposit produce significant amounts of material that was neither copper bearing or of high quality. The colors of copper bearing tourmaline are found in non copper bearing tourmaline with the probable exception of some purples.

2, High quality copper bearing tourmaline must have a strong glow-like quality that transends vivid/brightness. The glow-like quality can also be seen in iron colored based tourmaline to a lesser degree. Gemstones with a glow-like quality appear to generate light, rather than just absorb and reflect ambient light, back to the eye. The quality is impossible to photogragaph in my opinion. most picures come out looking over exposed.

3, I think the use of a place name for a gem variety of tourmaline along with a chemical definition for the material was a fundamental trade mistake. Tourmaline is too widely found and complex in nature to put place or chemical restrictions on it. High quality Paraiba/cuprian/paraiba type/paraiba like tourmaline can stand on its beauty. It did not break into the trade in a big way because it was tourmaline or rare or in a certain color range, rather it made it despite being tourmaline. SEMPRESCIOUS no more!

Finally, the bottom line. For the reasons above and others each copper bearing tourmaline must be judged individually in person. And if you truly want to know the value of your gem stone and not just the offer of an experience trader, you need to personally examine gemstones and evaluate their prices. I think it will be worth the effort, but it will take time.

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 Post subject: Re: paraiba tourmaline value questions
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:11 am 
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Well i just got the report from AIGS bangkok and its not even paraiba tourmaline.They classified it as *blue* tourmaline.Apparently it doesnt have any copper.
I'm waiting for GIA report for verification but probably it will be the same since AIGS is also well respected in Bangkok.

Overall,waste of time and money.

I might get something out of the red zultanite's though.


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 Post subject: Re: paraiba tourmaline value questions
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:03 am 
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myrica wrote:
Well i just got the report from AIGS bangkok and its not even paraiba tourmaline.They classified it as *blue* tourmaline.Apparently it doesnt have any copper.
I'm waiting for GIA report for verification but probably it will be the same since AIGS is also well respected in Bangkok.

Overall,waste of time and money.

I might get something out of the red zultanite's though.

sorry to hear that it's not what you expected, in jewelry business this happens a lot! it's a risky business

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