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 Post subject: Re: chrome tourmaline
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:05 am 
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Barbra Voltaire wrote:
I do, I do, I do.

1bwana, tell us about the GLSpectrometer.


It is a very useful tool. Simple, and affordable. I think your Raman is probably more useful for gem ID, as the GL has a limited database of comparison stone files. I am working on building mine up.

I forget where I read it, but this describes spectroscopes perfectly. "Spectroscopes are like tuxedos. You don't need them all that often, but when you do, nothing else will work."


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 Post subject: Re: chrome tourmaline
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:32 am 
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A lot of info & speculation floating, i know the RETAIL value of good chrome tourl. I will contact AGL and start the process- :roll: 8)


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 Post subject: Re: chrome tourmaline
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:40 pm 
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Best news ever Steve302!!!

AGL is my preferred lab for color.

Keep us posted!


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 Post subject: Re: chrome tourmaline
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:07 pm 
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ruby302 wrote:
A lot of info & speculation floating, i know the RETAIL value of good chrome tourl. I will contact AGL and start the process- :roll: 8)


I appreciate your doing this, because I am very interested in Tourmaline that color changes this way. Please keep us informed!!


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 Post subject: Re: chrome tourmaline
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:58 pm 
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Nicky Newark wrote:
It may be rare but in normal lighting it is a very dark unattractive stone.

I got one of those tourmalines (from another vendor) as well (in 2007, I'd guess). Being a relatively large stone, it was -in practice- black, with green and/or reddish flashes depending on the light. Mine didn't go in the junk box because it's a nice curiosity and I enjoy it, but still, it's almost black. :)
I remember a pleochroism black ("closed" c-axis) -> "chrome" green.

I don't have it with me (it's in Italy), but I think it was ~10 ct and I paid around 140 $ for it.

Very similar to these:
https://gem.agency/gemstones/color-chan ... ourmaline/

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 Post subject: Re: chrome tourmaline
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:10 pm 
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As all who have them have pointed out, these are very interesting gems and worth adding to a collection. What they are also indicating is that due to there less than ideal color they should not be priced as if they were fine quality chrome tourmaline. They seem to sell for much, much less.


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 Post subject: Re: chrome tourmaline
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:29 pm 
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I received Nick's tourmaline.

Very interesting curiosity, but too dark for jewelry.

The stone is quite dark...at first it looked like schorl.
Transmitted light green
Reflected light dark red.

I would describe the phenomenon as a "color shift" as described in the Winter 1984 issue of Gems & Gemology, Manson and Stockton of the GIA to describe a change in color caused by transmitted light as opposed to reflected light as observed in color change pyrope-spessartite garnets.

Refractive index: 1,615-1,640
Birefringrence: 0.025
Uniaxial -
The table is perpendicular to the "C" axis w/ textbook uniaxial - optic figure
UV: LW inert; SW: yellow
I thought the lack of fluorescence w/ LW probably had something to do with a presence of either iron or vanadium.
No attraction to a rare earth magnet.

If the dravite had iron it should be attracted to the magnet.
Vanadium would not have any attraction.


Magnification: Nothing

CF: red (for whatever that's worth)


I'll add more info as I get it.


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 Post subject: Re: chrome tourmaline
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:07 pm 
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The Rarity of Chrome Green Tourmaline - Ganoksin Jewelry Making Community
https://www.ganoksin.com/article/chrome ... ourmaline/
I'm wondering if this may be a vanadium dravite or a combination of vanadium and chromium. Whatever it is it's not what I would call chrome tourmaline. The stone I got from Precision Gem many years ago is fine chrome tourmaline. In my opinion it may be more rare than the shift stone because it has a nice medium tone( my guess 70%) which is unusual in stones over one carat. I think the stone Maiatto has is the same material as this blackish shift/change stone.I agree with Barbra that it is much to dark for jewelry but makes in interesting study stone. 1bawana-Steve- have you ever seen or heard of a change/shift stone with a tone under 85%. I haven't.

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 Post subject: Re: chrome tourmaline
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:06 am 
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Today I was browsing through 'Gemstones: properties, identification and use' by Arthur Thomas and came across the following. "An emerald-green variety of tourmaline that occurs in Tanzania is marketed as chrome tourmaline regardless of the fact that in a large proportion of the specimens tested the dominant chromophore has proved to be vanadium. Some of these vanadian tourmalines exhibit a marked colour change, appearing deep emerald-green in daylight and intense red under incandescent light." Further grist to the mill.


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 Post subject: Re: chrome tourmaline
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:26 pm 
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I remember now that when i first met my gem cutter's brother, he was sorting through tourmalines looking for ones that changed color. Don't recall what type of color change he was looking for, though.


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 Post subject: Re: chrome tourmaline
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:46 pm 
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Duncan Miller wrote:
Today I was browsing through 'Gemstones: properties, identification and use' by Arthur Thomas and came across the following. "An emerald-green variety of tourmaline that occurs in Tanzania is marketed as chrome tourmaline regardless of the fact that in a large proportion of the specimens tested the dominant chromophore has proved to be vanadium. Some of these vanadian tourmalines exhibit a marked colour change, appearing deep emerald-green in daylight and intense red under incandescent light." Further grist to the mill.

The book you mentioned was pretty hard to find in stock. I just ordered a good condition used copy from Barnes and Noble marketplace.

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 Post subject: Re: chrome tourmaline
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:31 pm 
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Who is up next for the sample that Nick sent me?
I'll mail it to anyone who may be interesting in seeing it.
Long story short, I think it is dravite colored predominately with vanadium.


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 Post subject: Re: chrome tourmaline
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:24 am 
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Although this stone was sold as a color change chrome tourmaline it appears to have little to no chromium content. Keep in mind that the dealer who sold it is the same guy that found a red apatite vein that no one else in the world had heard of. Barbra- if no one else is interested in analyzing this stone, feel free to drop it in the nearest fish tank. :D viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23584

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 Post subject: Re: chrome tourmaline
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:28 pm 
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You are killin' me Nick!


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 Post subject: Re: chrome tourmaline
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:13 pm 
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(Typed out using text-to-talk on my phone.... please excuse any horrible grammar or misspellings as I try to proof it as fast as possible and may have copied something twice accidentally... I had pictures I was going to include as well but decided against...so it please disregard any reference to that)
I need to apologize to Barbra for stirring the pot again.....
I told her a few months back that I would ease up and not be so coarse towards "m76steve"...err...I mean "ruby302". 
I also need to apologize to "ruby302" for mistaking your purple tourmalines as cuprian.  That was an err on my part and I jumped the gun with my reply about that.

You have to understand why I give Ruby 302 such a hard time. These days I rarely bother trying to ruffle most folks feathers by being honest, or what not, but in this case I have a vested interest in the amount of time and effort I have put in trying to sway a person's belief.
i have seen for years now that Ruby302 has a true passion for gemstones...he has the "bug", just like we do. That in itself is worthy of my time and attention, to a degree.  As misguided as he can be in some aspects, I still respect the fact he has yet to tuck tail and run off, especially with as much flak as I/others have given him.  He would be an asset to the community at large, if he could keep that unfettered passion around, yet toss out the skewered appraisal-end-all-be-all ideology he picked somewhere along the way.

Ruby302, it pains me to think your possibly still stuck in that bubble of yours, even after all these years of highly accomplished gem aficionados and experts telling you otherwise. 
You have to sometimes listen to others and take note of their advice and the info they dole out.  We are all on the same team in this industry/passion, and no one is out to "get you" or rain on your parade, so to speak.......they just want to be helpful and informative to help better yourself, and your knowledge of stones.  If you were just some fly-by-night weekend warrior who popped in here and there too ramble on about this or that......nobody would really care, or take the time to engage with you. 
Just look at the beginners Forum on here, where there are plenty of folks who just pop in to post a question or two and then are never seen again. Clearly they don't have the "bug/Gem fever" like you and I possess, along with the GO.com family. 
I just got into it with one of my best friends regarding his unwavering belief that rutile causes asterism in star rose quartz. Regardless of how much facts, graphs, and data I tried Gathering and showing to him, he still wouldn't take the time to read or listen to what I had to say. The whole point of it all was to further educate and inform him that there is possibly more than one explanation for something that has been touted as fact for a hundred years or more. Because he does informational videos regarding rocks and crystals and gemstones, that hundreds of thousands of people watch, I feel it's necessary that all avenues and ideas need to be understood or known, so the correct information can be doled out to the people out there who are listening.
This is how I feel about you Ruby 302. You're always adding content to forms and websites and I feel the need for you to be better equipped and understanding, since your opinion can, and will, hold sway amongst those who are not as informed as us.

You have been posting your stones for years and years now, so obviously you're addicted like the rest of us.
No one wants to steer you wrong, or steal your thunder, or make you think that you didn't get a good deal here, or a good deal there, but you have to understand that most of the advice is coming from people who know a lot more than you do about the gem industry. 
This holds true for me, as well.  Half the folks on this forum are people I look up to, learn from, and whom I consider "peers of mine".  This place is my main reference for information regarding all things gems.

Didn't you ever wonder why you would post your stones over on "the other gem forum website(PS)", and then catch so much flak for it?  Obviously, it wasn't "pick on "m76steve day", ya know. 
It's because time and time again, you would be given advice and/or corrected on something you said, or posted, yet you would never "hear" what was being said to you

You wouldn't listen to anyone else, and continue on with your "matter of fact" statements.  That in itself is not a big deal, but when it becomes so many times....over and over....month after month, and year after year, and still you wouldn't "listen" ..all the comments(a hundred of them??)and responses that were doled out on your behalf....all the advice given to you that should have helped you learn and grow and steered you in the right direction ......never made a damn bit of difference, or so it seems.
  You're definitely not ignorant to what people would say, or the meaning behind their responses, but you chose to dig your feet in, and not listen to anyone else giving you advice, all the while proclaiming your righteousness as a gem buyer and your uncanny ability to get a "steal of a deal".
  You have to understand that you're often surrounded by people who are on a level above what the normal gem consumer is at, so when you consistently post threads touting your "extraordinary ability" to buy Ebay gemstones for next to nothing... well, of course is going to draw some scrutiny.
You kept ramming it down everybody's throat about how Savvy and great you are at finding these once-in-a-lifetime deals, so to speak.  Just about every single Stone or jewelry pendant you posted came with a few lines touting your holier-than-thou appraiser, the amount of money the Stones we're NOW worth after getting them appraised(oftentimes 5000%-10,000%+?? increase in value)
You can't be as smug and sanctimonious as you were in the past, regarding actual truths, and what you believe to be or not to be.(is that the question...Lol...sorry....had too!!)    This is very true when it comes to buying eBay Stones, getting them "appraised", and then posting them in places where serious gem lovers hangout, like here at GO.  


It's nice that you posted a lab report from a AGL, and I'm happy to see  a step in the right direction , but I already know that you only have a few lab reports....maybe only 2 or 3 even, and that is a drop in the bucket, when compared to all the gemstones you have bought from EBay.   You used to downplay getting a lab report on anything, because you're "special appraiser" could somehow magically identify stones/treatments that required the tools only a lab could provide. 
You always "assumed" said stone was "as described", or that your "one-of-a-kind appraiser" was fully capable of performing such test. 
  This is not something unique to you, m76steve, as lots of people come along thinking they know more than they actually do,  but like I said before, the difference is you come back again and again  with the same misguided rhetoric,  and the assumption that your right....and....everyone else must be wrong.
Ruby302.... you can't honestly think that you're Alexandrite stones are worth $30,000. And that is just one of the set of Alex that you have.  If I remember correctly, you have a few other loose stones of alexandrite, that you supposedly bought for next to nothing on eBay,  that suddenly were worth $20,000 dollars......or $30,000 like this one.
And the crazy thing is you genuinely believe the stones you buy for pennies on the dollar are actually worth what your appraiser tells you they're worth. 

Here....lets look at some things right quick to help give an example of what I mean
You said this about your "alexandrite"...
       "this pendent has 2 faceted stones-upper stone is 2.04cts of russian alex-bottom stone is 2.34cts of russian alex-the 3 catseye stones are indian origin at just over 4.0cts total-this pendent has been appraised at over $40,000.00 at the latest appraisal-the woman who appraised it told me that the last appraiser was a little high at $30,000.00-she came back with the 40k+ appraisal &this was after she researched for several days with other people in the business"....."the 2.04-was told at the time it was one of the few stones that showed 95% color change or better-the 2.34ct is russian listed with 80% color change"

Like I said before, years ago, for whatever reason you won't get a lab report on your stones and if those Alexandrite are actually worth $40,000, like your appraiser says, then what's a $250 lab report???.....it's a drop in the bucket. Without a lab report how would you know if they are Russian in origin? Do you not question the fact that somehow you acquired one of the rarest gems in the world for next to nothing? If it was truly a 95% color change  alexandrite of 2 carats+....from Russia(along with your other 2ct.+ Russian alexandrites.... then from my understanding of things in the Alexandrite world, which is not the  best(not a chrysoberyl fan), then you would actually have a class of gemstone in your possession, that very few have ever laid eyes upon in person, let alone purchased. .

So your appraiser couldn't do An Origin report to prove they were Russian.  Was it your eBay seller or appraiser who came up with the 95% color change percentage? If I remember correctly it was your seller who told you that. Do You have any tangible info from a lab, or third party, confirming the percentage of color change???.....hmmm....
Do you have anything proving that your Alexandrite is actually in Alexandrite, and not some type of synthetic or simulant?

This is a good quote from someone else who was concerned about what was going on with your methodology and understanding of gemstones gemstone collection is what your special appraiser(s) priced them at, and the majority, if not all of them, were bought off eBay for a tiny fraction of that amount....
" m76Steve(Ruby302), if you have a collection that is truly worth the $200,000 you have touted, then gem reports are drops in the bucket of that investment. Right now, you are doing nothing to protect this investment, and that is scary to me. And to other posters here."

Here is another example.......
You said.....

"-im not talking 1 appraiser-im using as many as 5 independent appraisers-they all havenot seen all my stones but many have seen the same stones & have given similar positive appraisals on the same stones-they have nothing to gain except my money & that was given with no conditions-i bought a service & was pleased with the outcome-iv had positive reactions from people all over country"

Your using 5 different appraisers on your gems, for whatever reason, and not getting a lab report at all????
First off, who pays for five appraisers to look at their ebay gems but doesn't get an actual lab report in the process?   Not a normal course of action with 99.8% of gem buyers.  You said in regards to paying 5 appraisers...(quote)"I bought a service, and I was pleased with the outcome"(endquote)
Of course you were pleased with the outcome the higher the price they tell you the more pleasure you get out of what they're telling you, right? You wouldnt be very pleased if they told you it was worth $200, correct?

I even went so far as to contact David Weinberg and ask him about Russian Alexandrite and your stones in particular, and he said ....
"..I'm am 99% sure it's not russian"
"I never see russian alexandrite in Bangkok and there are very few around anyway.
"I saw one 15 years ago and was unimpressed"
He also said that he can't really be sure without a lab report.
.. you said the stones were cut in 2006...in Bangkok... in case you didn't know, he wrote the book on alexandrite, literally. (Alexandrite.net) and is based in Bangkok. 

These few paragraphs were written by a longtime friend on another forum, and it reiterates what I was trying to say above, except she says it in a more concise, crisp, and smooth flowing manner.

    ...."You know Ruby302(m76steve), I think the problem is that you seem to be convinced that they are not only right, but that they cannot be wrong. This thread has been going on for entirely too long, with entirely too much dissent for you to not have opened up your eyes at least a little bit.

Part of the issue, that I think is bringing so many people to the table to voice their concerns, is that you aren't just saying "I bought these on ebay, they are beautiful and I love them no matter what they are." Instead you're saying, "I bought these for a steal on ebay, and I'm getting them appraised for amounts that are twenty times more than I paid for them! Every single stone I have is the steal of the century!"

What are the odds of every single stone you've bought being the stone of the century? I could ask my husband (he's a statistician) but I really don't care to find out how incredibly unlikely it is.

I think every person who has posted a differing opinion from your appraiser's on here has been met with denial denial denial. I think deep down, you are unsure about all of these claims that these are amazing deals and you are unsure about your appraisers, but you don't want to be proven wrong by a lab. Understandable--we, as humans, never want to be wrong!

I wish I could believe that you HAVE gotten amazing deals on all of these stones, I really do. That would make me feel a lot better about humanity and ebay in general......"



There are numerous examples and lots of stones that you have bought over the years, Steve, that have never been tested or checked by a lab and were sent to your appraiser and came back with grossly over inflated values.....like that 2ct., blue Brazilian paraiba tourmaline....that you bought off eBay....that came, not with a lab report but a "certificate of authenticity"....no proof it was copper as its chromophore....and.... once again you got the "deal of the century", I guess, because it was valued at $20,000, even though you picked it up off eBay for a fraction of that price.
Emeralds, red Barrel, Alexandrite, heliodor, Ruby, Sapphire, red spinel, blue spinel, etc. If I remember correctly you bought almost every darn gem species out there to add to your collection and to make your pendants. But if I also remember correctly you rarely ever got a lab report done, especially on the stones that need a lab to properly ID them.


I really like your pendants and how you bought the stones and had them designed and set into those jewelry pendants of yours. I thought it was very cool. I also like the fact that you did go out and get a lab report on a stone or two of yours after we griped at you for so long about doing it. That 4.7 karat cobalt blue spinel with the massive window and the real real dark color I think you got a lab report done on that and it turned out to be a true natural stone, so it was correct, but you had an appraisal done and they valued it at something like $5,500 or $5,000, even though, you could buy in identical Stone from any number of eBay sellers in Bangkok, for around $100 to $500....I think someone found a similar match for $50 bucks or so.  If you remember correctly everybody was happy you went out got that lab report just like we've been saying.
You see I used to be headstrong and cocky myself when I came around in the early days. I used to think I knew everything to, but I quickly realized I was not on the same level as the people I was associating with. You can go back on many of my old post and read how stupid and ignorant I sounded regarding this or that, but I soon learned to shut up and listen. Surrounding myself with peers people I looked up to, like those here on gemologyonline, helped make me become more thorough and diligent in my research and reading up on stones and the like, if I was going to post something. When you are in a place that has so many "Titans of Industry", like GO.com, then you have to be careful and make sure to dot your I's and cross your t's, or you'll end up sounding like a fool....like I have numerous times. Steve, these are the people you want to surround yourself with, here on this forum. They are not consumer-based individuals, such as on pricescope, but are more often based in The Sciences surrounding gemstones.

I look forward to a long happy relationship conversing with you in the foreseeable future, Ruby/m76steve.

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