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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:03 am 
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I think De Beers position, is that Lab grown diamonds are here to stay and will be a big business, so we want to control the conversation, and the perception, thereby controlling relative value. They need to do this while not running afoul of the legal system.


Last edited by 1bwana1 on Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:57 am 
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They may be mistaken, in case other actors would choose to sell the same lab products at much lower prices, when big quantities will be available in a while.


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:50 am 
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Isi wrote:
They may be mistaken, in case other actors would choose to sell the same lab products at much lower prices, when big quantities will be available in a while.


I think you may be missing the point of why De Beers in entering this market. The small stones are already available on the market for about $100. De Beers will be pricing at about $400 ($800 retail). The difference is that De Beers will be pricing the large stones at the same price per carat as the small stones. This is much much less than the labs are selling. De Beers does not need to make a profit on the lab stones. In fact, they hope that they can change the perception of value for lab stones so much that prices fall to be the same as imitations such as CZ and Moissanite. It is their hope that by doing this they will preserve the value of natural stones because "rare is real", and lab has no value.

Yes, it is a big gamble, but they have no choice.


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:26 pm 
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Barbra Voltaire wrote:
I ask because a colleague of mine (professional appraiser) spent $750 on a screener. Purchased several synthetics at the Vegas show and discovered her screener to be totally unreliable.

The EXA is reliable, but it is a $7,000 investment.

The EXA will also seperate natural IIA from synthetic, but can not determine if the diamond has been subjected to HPHT treatment.

Makes sense that synthetic type IIa have a brownish tint, like many natural IIa. That is why HPHT is used...to get those pesky carbon atoms to shape up.



Barbra , How to separate natural IIA from IIA synthetic by EXA (not HPHT processed)? Is it 100% reliable answer? Is it in Advanced User Mode? I cannot find it in manual . Can You explain it ?


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:48 am 
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1bwana1 wrote:
In fact, they hope that they can change the perception of value for lab stones so much that prices fall to be the same as imitations such as CZ and Moissanite. It is their hope that by doing this they will preserve the value of natural stones because "rare is real", and lab has no value.


I see the point better.
However, what if the market gets literally overflooded with synthetic diamonds, to the point that nobody will be willing anymore to put money in this stone, and all diamonds, natural included, will be swallowed into this pit of contempt ?
Besides, people are getting more and more easily informed today, and it will be hard for De Beers to be able to maintain much longer the fallacious myth that "real is rare".
Plus, the argument of "eco-responsibility", be it false or true, might work well in some parts of the world, in favour of synthetics.
I have found - already - this website in french, which sums it all :
https://www.innocentstone.com/bijoux-ec ... ables.html

At the end of the day, consumers might become either confused or bored or suspicious of all this mess and just turn away from all kinds of diamonds, just to make sure that they are not being fooled some way or other.
Time will tell !


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:39 pm 
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Quote:
Barbra , How to separate natural IIA from IIA synthetic by EXA (not HPHT processed)? Is it 100% reliable answer? Is it in Advanced User Mode? I cannot find it in manual . Can You explain it ?


I'm sure Alberto or Mikko could explain this with far more clarity than I.

The EXA does NOT identify diamond types.
It identifies natural diamonds, separating them from lab grown.
Think this through....if a diamond is identified as natural, do we care if it is a type II?
The EXA can not seperate a natural type IIa from a natural type IIa which has been subjected to HPHT to improve color. Both will read as natural, as both ARE natural.

If it is identified as NOT natural we can presume it is type II.

Please feel free to correct me on any of these points. I am only repeating what I remember hearing in Tucson.


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:18 am 
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If rarity was the sole driver of gemstone prices, achroite would have been more expensive than diamond for like forever. So the generation of demand by both myth makers and truth tellers has been part of the trade like forever.

Now that I have said the obvious, why do I think that synthetic diamond will be different than any other synthetic made into gemstones? Because the production and pricing of synthetic diamond will not be dominated by making small shinny items for men to lie to women about true love. It will be dominated by making a wonderful new world of electronic devices. Diamond has physical and electronic properties that no other semi conductor can match. And larger and larger perfect crystals, needed for electronic development are being grown right now. Diamond is easy to grow and elbaite is not and never will be. (I have a beautiful, natural, unheated and untreated achroite that I can show you, but it might be a little bit too expensive to be set in your platinum ring. In the future of course!)

Bruce

I personally find it hard to believe that an objective person would not find a wonderfully cut and precisely made yellow diamond being beautiful and having intrinsic value just because it is not earth born.


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:18 pm 
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Your last sentence confuses me, Bruce.

DeBeers is not a newcomer to the business of synthetic industrial nor gem quality synthetic diamond.

Element Six, formerly known as DeBeers Industrial diamond, is the largest shareholder of the DeBeers Group of Companies.

It is also my understanding that DeBeers has been the largest producer of synthetic diamonds, uhm, since synthetic diamonds were first made.

Wiki wrote:
As De Beers Industrial Diamond, the company was set up initially to concentrate on the industrial applications of natural diamond. Following the development of diamond synthesis in the early 1950s, the company acquired the technology and by 1958 was able to manufacture material based on a high pressure, high temperature process. By the 1960s, the company was offering a range of diamond grit products that was followed by nickel and coated diamond materials plus grinding products based on cubic boron nitride. In 1992, breakthroughs in chemical vapour deposition technology opened the opportunity to synthesize diamond films and a new raft of application areas became possible.

In 2002, the company changed its name to Element Six and its business focus moved towards building an enterprise based on advanced material applications for increasingly sophisticated engineering customers backed by global technical support and a strong research and development organization.

In 2013 Element Six opened the world’s largest and most sophisticated synthetic diamond research and development facility. The Global Innovation Centre, near Oxford, UK develops a pipeline of innovative synthetic diamond and related supermaterial products for customers, in industries from oil and gas drilling to precision machining and electronics.


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:22 am 
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It was my understanding that GE developed the first commercial production of diamonds in the world and I believe it was in the 1950s. They also produced the first gem quality diamond of significant size. It was too expensive to compete with natural diamonds at the time, but the handwriting was on the wall. GE's plant in the US has produced an enormous amount of diamonds over the decades. I also did not realize that DeBeers was so involved.

I think the last part of my post is about giving a gemstone value. I believe that rarity is completely over rated in the valuing of gemstones. Even if large synthetic diamonds become cheep, they will still be beautiful and have intrinsic value/beauty to me. On the other hand the cuprian reverse alexandrite color changing tourmaline I call Laurellite appears to have no intrinsic value except as raw material to be heated to produce paraiba type gemstones. Is Laurellite rare, without a doubt and getting rarer everyday. I could go on with how much unheated Tanzanite ill be kept because it will be so rare when the ONLY deposit of Tanzanite is worked out, but I think you know the answer.

I hope what I wrote helps a little in understanding me rather than just let me drift away from diamonds and back into my hall of pet peeves.

Bruce


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:27 pm 
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Got it. Thanks, Bruce.
Yes, GE originally developed synthetic diamonds and DeBeers ran with it from the start.


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:41 pm 
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I dunno, that didn't work out well for CZ.


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:00 pm 
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I think that eventually the price of lab grown diamonds will reflect manufacturing costs rather than an artificial price based on a percent discount from earth mined stones. That will be the true test of value for both. Currently trading at between 65% to 75% off the RAP sheet when comparable Earth mined stones are 25 to 40 percent discount from RAP. This makes them only about 50 percent less. Not a compelling difference in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:14 am 
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Agreed.
Pricing, back of Rap, is only logical in an artificial reality.

The price of natural diamonds is irrelevant when pricing synthetic diamonds.


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