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 Post subject: Re: CVD Synthetic Diamond Alert
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:57 am 
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Uh! If there was an easy method (PL microscopy or spectroscopy) for separating synthetic diamonds vs. natural ones simply with 405nm excitation the big boys would have found it 10 years ago.

PL growth zoning microscopy doesn't work like described. It needs essentially an excitation source with wavelengths below 225nm so that even type IIa is opaque and growth zone luminescence comes from the surface. If it comes from the bulk material, the image is blurred.

Right now I have tested 40-50 small yellow HPHT crystals... all having yellowish fluorescence as expected but no visible growth zones. What's up?

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 Post subject: Re: CVD Synthetic Diamond Alert
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:49 pm 
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Hi everybody,

we have decided to purchase the HRD D-Screen, as I have a collegue that has already been offered 2 happy hats (hpht's), not CVD's in this case, but colour enchanced natural diamonds.

I think that the most important thing is to really admit to oneself that sometimes we do need the devices to detect. A SSEF hpht spotter would also do the trick, but above a certain amount of stones I think that the initial investment is worth it for the D-screen, especially as in our case the stones are mostly mounted.

Rgds to all,

David


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 Post subject: Re: CVD Synthetic Diamond Alert
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:38 am 
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what if The DTC DiamondView™ & the DTC DiamondSure™ were affordable :roll:

by the way here is original IGI letter regarding CVD Synthetic Diamond Alert
[pdfview]http://diamondclub.us/IGITradeAlert.pdf[/pdfview]

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 Post subject: Re: CVD Synthetic Diamond Alert
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:26 am 
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Hi David,

Davidauctioneer wrote:
, especially as in our case the stones are mostly mounted.


i don't get that, the SSEF spotter can check even for mounted stones, you have only to buy the optional tube which i paid 50 or 60 euros 4 yrs ago.......
That said, the D-screen has a limitation on this side. there's no room inside it for more than a ring, a custom made adapter could allow the spotter to test even for larger pieces. I'm pretty sure that adapter doesn't exist ready made but it wouldn't be difficult atall to made it. You wouldn't have the same chance with the D-screen....
ciao
alberto

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 Post subject: Re: CVD Synthetic Diamond Alert
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:54 am 
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you have only to buy the optional tube which i paid 50 or 60 euros 4 yrs ago.......

Thanks Alberto, didn't check that, good tip! I will be in A'werp next week, will have a look at them and post my findings..

Rgds
David


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 Post subject: Re: CVD Synthetic Diamond Alert
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:58 am 
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Davidauctioneer wrote:
Thanks Alberto, didn't check that, good tip! I will be in A'werp next week, will have a look at them and post my findings..


YW David.
Dunno if you'll be able to find it in Antwerp, I purchase it at Baselshow SSEF booth.
ciao
alberto

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 Post subject: Re: CVD Synthetic Diamond Alert
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:00 pm 
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Here WE go again

http://www.jckonline.com/2012/07/11/und ... -hong-kong


We seriously have to ask ourselves
If Diamond Dealers and Diamond Cutters are getting taken
Just imagine how many diamonds are being sold to the consumer as un-documented Synthetic diamonds world-wide.

This is insane!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: CVD Synthetic Diamond Alert
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:35 pm 
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Shouldn't be too many more days now before the general media pick up on the story, which, actually, I'm kinda surprised, doesn't seem to have happened yet. Must be sleepy-time in the newsrooms.

Cheers all,
Hans Durstling
Moncton Canada

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 Post subject: Re: CVD Synthetic Diamond Alert
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:57 am 
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That, or it reflects the actual significance of it all... ~0.3ct rocks are not that shocking. The fact that the labs pick 'm up easily makes it even less shocking.

What does a 0,3 ct F VVS2 go for anyway?

If that amount, according to our precious diamond price-list named 'the Guide' exceeds the 100 bucks (which it does) we have actually found something shocking! Something that actually needs some addressing by the 'general media' (almost exclusively living off advertisement-money so equally dependent on the commerce it should be covering as the gemlabs). Colorless bits of not-so-rare mineral going for those prices for decades...

Now THAT's shocking...

I'm a big fan of synthetic diamond development, especially the CVD method. It will enable us to substitute our silica computer chips by diamond ones bringing us the yotta-bytes we desire. :D


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 Post subject: Re: CVD Synthetic Diamond Alert
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:55 am 
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hola,

i wouldn't underestimate the real impact of this issue.........
it doesn't really matter how much a 0.3 ct bit worth, but thousands cts of that material could/would produce a significative damage to the diamond industry.
and there's more. As i said in another post somewere i'm struggling hard to find IIa natural bits for an ongoing LN Raman spectrometry study. I digged hundreds carats parcels of the best candidates (TLB, LB) and was unable to find a single one. that, from a mere statistic point of view is quite impossible.
Nasty rumors about top quality melee parcels salted with 3-5 % of CVD and HPHT processed are more and more frequent recently.........
Paranoia? Maybe but, let's couple that with the fact i cannot find IIa nats and you could drag some conclusions by your own........
hoping to cheat someone with an undisclosed 3+ cts F VVs1 HPHT treated is a mistake nowadays, no one i know would pay for such a stone without a reputable lab report..... but let's think to the melee market chain............. once mounted as sidestones or pavé, maybe around a genuine big stone......they wouldn't be submitted to advanced testing by no one, atall, never......
As a working gemologist i would be very happy to work more on CS stones but the reality is i gain my 90% wage from diamonds, i really don't think to be the only one..... :roll:

ciao
albé

sidenote: i don't know any diamond pro who uses "the guide" for diamond pricing.....

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 Post subject: Re: CVD Synthetic Diamond Alert
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:26 am 
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As a working gemologist i would be very happy to work more on CS stones but the reality is i gain my 90% wage from diamonds, i really don't think to be the only one...


I know you are not the only one, the whole industry thrives on them. Yet, if they were all natural you wouldn't have a job either... :wink:

Since you bring up statistics... we now have 600+10 detected small diamonds in a month and a half. How many natural ones have passed those labs in the meanwhile you think?

Another thing... everybody is calling for 'action'. What action? You want to track down the manufacturer and send a drone + JDAM to his place? You wanna require every dealer to get every bit of diamond analyzed and accompanied with a report? Laser inscribed?

In my eyes all 'the industry' (read 'the gemmos') has to do is make sure they can detect what is being offered on synthetics/treatments and put the word out so that people can do their own 'due diligence'. If I'm not mistaking that is exactly what is being done. Educating the consumer is a lost cause. They don't want to spend the vast amount of time and effort it requires to get half the picture. Completely understandable. The group that needs active education is retail jewelers and goldsmiths, the ones that actually face the consumer and buy wholesale in order to sell retail. Let them justify their margins by being schooled in more than just making sales.

And for the record: I don't detest diamonds, they are a very cool mineral but I detest the marketing hype around 'm.

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sidenote: i don't know any diamond pro who uses "the guide" for diamond pricing.....


Goes to show I'm not a 'diamond pro'... :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: CVD Synthetic Diamond Alert
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:05 am 
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Tim wrote:
Quote:
As a working gemologist i would be very happy to work more on CS stones but the reality is i gain my 90% wage from diamonds, i really don't think to be the only one...


I know you are not the only one, the whole industry thrives on them. Yet, if they were all natural you wouldn't have a job either... :wink:


you forget grading, mate.......i'd rephrase the above: if they were all natural i'd still have a job AND i could work far more relaxed...... :D

Quote:
Since you bring up statistics... we now have 600+10 detected small diamonds in a month and a half. How many natural ones have passed those labs in the meanwhile you think?


i'm not afraid about diamonds that actually walk the lab's doors.........i'm really worried about those stones never walk that door due to their SINGLE intrinsic low walue..... I'm perfectly aware Labs grade parcels aswell but, well, it's not so difficult to swap those materials............. :?

Quote:
Another thing... everybody is calling for 'action'. What action? You want to track down the manufacturer and send a drone + JDAM to his place? You wanna require every dealer to get every bit of diamond analyzed and accompanied with a report? Laser inscribed?


nothing of what you say, i don't have a solution.........

Quote:
In my eyes all 'the industry' (read 'the gemmos') has to do is make sure they can detect what is being offered on synthetics/treatments and put the word out so that people can do their own 'due diligence'


that is actually what i do every day but, in some cases it's not easy atall. "indication" features of synth and/or treated are not always available, when you need for a proof there's actually no other way than go for the big (and expensive) guns....... :?

Quote:
The group that needs active education is retail jewelers and goldsmiths, the ones that actually face the consumer and buy wholesale in order to sell retail. Let them justify their margins by being schooled in more than just making sales.


absolutely agree, again is what i do on daily bases. But for what i said above, that is not the key factor when you need a smoking gun. what the market still misses is a realtively inexpensive tool for doing the job. not sure that will be available soon, though....... :?

ciao
albé

PS: i'm still on the market for IIa small and inexpensive naturals for my study......i dropped the request almost everywere more than 2 months ago, besides a couple of "i'll let you know" (still) without further developements....complete radio silence...... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: CVD Synthetic Diamond Alert
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:25 am 
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you forget grading, mate...


[opinion]
Ah, the old grading job... that is part of the marketing hype I so regret.

Explanation:

Grader no. 1...

"lemmie see, this piece of crystallized carbon might be more colorless then those other pieces of crystallized carbon. I can't really tell them apart - and I've seen thousands of diamonds so I'm pretty sure you can't - but when I put 'm in my special light box, sold at prices only 'diamond pro's' can justify to pay for a lamp in a box, I can vaguely make out a difference against a set of master stones, sold at prices only 'diamond pro's can justify. Yes, this one is not as colorless as that one. I'm sure. It's a F and therefor worth x more than an G"

Customer walks to Grader no. 2...

"lemmie see, this piece of crystallized carbon might be more colorless then those other pieces of crystallized carbon. I can't really tell them apart - and I've seen thousands of diamonds so I'm pretty sure you can't - but when I put 'm in my special light box, sold at prices only 'diamond pro's' can justify to pay for a lamp in a box, I can vaguely make out a difference against a set of master stones, sold at prices only 'diamond pro's can justify. Yes, this one is not as colorless as that one. I'm sure. It's a G and therefor worth x more than an H"

*Problem!*

Next thing you know there is a vibrant discussion between the graders/appraisers about what light to use, what master set to use, whether we can invent a universal spectrophotometer which will rule out all human errors and so forth and so forth. Whole 'professional communities' are buzzing. Certain companies step up and declare their diamond light, their darkfield well, their master stones etc etc to be the only true thing alive. 'Professional opinions' fly from one end to another and egos clash. Outcome of it all is that the consumer, with his 'holy' confidence walks out the door confused as [explicit] but certain of the fact 'the whole gemstone industry is nuts'. What little confidence he had is now lost, not because of the odd synthetic or treated stone around, that bit 'the industry' can actually solve with science, but because the whole pricing thing apparently has very little to do with reality.

And somewhere, probably somewhere nice and warm, someone is laughing his ass off because his predecessors have successfully marketed a dreamed up sense of rarity into a readily available gem material.

The old grading... It used to be done by the buyer, glancing over the available products, picking what appealed to him most... perhaps it would be an idea to quit making it 'the industry's job' to decide what people should like most (and thus pay more for).

[/opinion]


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 Post subject: Re: CVD Synthetic Diamond Alert
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:32 am 
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welcome to our industry mate....... and, btw, do you think it's easy to make a living dealing with that scenario? unfortunately if you wanna make a living as a working gemologist you have to deal with it and, for sure you will have your troubles playing fair in such situation.
despite your opinion about graders is really funny to read i found it a bit (but just a bit) offensive for people that every day are struggling in their labs........ but maybe it has something to do with my poor skills in understanding a foreign language......

ciao
albé

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 Post subject: Re: CVD Synthetic Diamond Alert
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:24 am 
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Naaah... I think you got every bit of it as I intended it. I don't develop my opinions with other people's feelings in mind, they just 'occur'. Whether or not I should keep 'm to myself or not is a different thing but I'm in a rebellious mood lately which means you get exposed to 'm without asking for 'm. Sorry 'bout that. I feel like provoking a thought or two today...

When I read LaShawn losing his soup over a few synthetics that were picked up in a lab, crying : 'This is insane', I just can't help myself.

What is so insane about it LaShawn?


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