National Shutdowns have put the lid on most shows.
Welcome to the GemologyOnline.com Forum
A non-profit Forum for the exchange of gemological ideas
It is currently Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:16 pm

All times are UTC - 4 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Clarity grading
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 7:41 am 
Offline
Valued Contributor

Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:46 am
Posts: 114
Location: Dubai
hi all
there is a similar topic reg color grading of diamonds and the necessity of using d-z scale vs wider groups of "colours"...
so now im thinking: what if we could grade clarity with more "realistic" grades?
realistic refers to the actual impact (visibility) of inclusions in the clarity grade and appearance of the diamond.

this would be my idea:

- IF-VVS1: Loupe clean (how many graders can actually see the inclusion in vvs1 without the microscope?)

- VVS2-VS1: VVS

- VS2-SI1: VS

- SI2: SI

- SI3-I1: I

- I2- I3: Near gem

i feel this would make the grading more "honest" specially toward the consumers.
at the end of the day diamonds are for commercial use, not for collecting (unless some very unique cases), and the difference in prices between VS2-SI1 (for example) seems not justified to me.
a less complicated grading scale would protect the final buyers that most of the times buy higher clarities (VVS, VS) just because they heard that "SI is not good"...or they think the could see the inclusions with naked eye.


just a thought...
what is your opinion?

_________________
www.studiogemfze.com


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Clarity grading
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:32 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:22 pm
Posts: 20241
Location: San Francisco
And how would redefining clarity grades using the same terminology provide better understanding to those who are already misinformed?

It seems like it would foster further confusion, misrepresentation, misunderstanding and increase the spread of misinformation.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Clarity grading
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 2:51 pm 
Offline
Moderator: Lapidary Diamonds
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:32 pm
Posts: 1747
Location: Florida, United States
Clarity grading is already well-established and defined. I do not see how the scheme you propose would improve the practice.

_________________
http://adamasfacet.com


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Clarity grading
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 12:15 am 
Offline
Valued Contributor

Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:46 am
Posts: 114
Location: Dubai
of course everything is well established and defined...my concern is about the fact that the tiny differences that we see with loupe or microscope are pratically invisible to consumers...so making a more "wide" ranges of clarity should make a better pricing scheme..this would be the final goal of a new interpretation of clarity grading.

make clarity grades according to significant differences that would justify the difference in pricing...and make a better understanding

i can pay more for a VS (old vs2-si1) compared to an SI (old si2) cause the influence of the inclusion is evident...but i dont see the reason why a vs2 costs up to 30% more than a si1 having a inclusions scenario (in many cases) very similar.

the "new system" is not meant to be more lineant or less strict.

im not expecting to change anything but its nice to discuss :)

_________________
www.studiogemfze.com


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Clarity grading
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 10:31 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:22 pm
Posts: 20241
Location: San Francisco
Why?
As we've discussed before, because it is an artificially controlled market which was fabricated to give diamonds the false appearance of rarity.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Clarity grading
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 9:52 pm 
Offline
Gemology Online Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:01 am
Posts: 556
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Barbra Voltaire wrote:
Why?
As we've discussed before, because it is an artificially controlled market which was fabricated to give diamonds the false appearance of rarity.


Far be it for me to argue with our very respected Barbra but I have never had any useful help from those who contend that diamonds are not rare. I am not a serious diamond buyer and have only been in the position to obtain gem diamonds a very few times.

As a gem cutter I do not consider an E, flawless a gem. I would not be disappointed if such a stone was used as an industrial tool which I use in the hundreds of carats to cut and polish coloured stones on a daily basis. Anything less than the best i.e. D, Flawless is as much rubbish in a diamond as it is in Quartz.

The last time I bought a diamond took over a year to obtain an acceptable stone and I got to reject much rubbish to achieve my requirements, trying to pass off a VVSI as a gem is in my opinion very sad. I appreciate that most people could care less but I have found that gem quality diamonds are extremely rare.

IMHO.Tony.

_________________
www.thegemdoctor.com
Beautiful British Columbia


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Clarity grading
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 7:33 pm 
Offline
Platinum Member

Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:02 pm
Posts: 2647
I'd pay to see Tony heckling a diamond bourse. :)

Excuse me, I think some are referred to as "Diamond Bourse and Club" now.

Club membership is the only thing that is rare.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Clarity grading
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 9:23 pm 
Offline
Gemology Online Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:01 am
Posts: 556
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Haha JB,

I would never heckle anyone, let alone a bourse. A simple "no thanks" has worked for me. I have had the misfortune to watch a lovely lady reduced to tears when her fiancee decided that bigger was better than quality and instead of her expected gem diamond of fractional carat size she got a big ugly stone that she was embarrassed to wear. That marriage didn't last too long.

My diamond purchases have always been for close friends and family and I was not prepared to make excuses or apologies for setting them up with inferior products which is why I was not prepared to accept less than true gems.

Tony.

_________________
www.thegemdoctor.com
Beautiful British Columbia


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Clarity grading
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 9:40 pm 
Offline
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:44 pm
Posts: 1076
Location: Washington State
TheGemDr wrote:
As a gem cutter I do not consider an E, flawless a gem. I would not be disappointed if such a stone was used as an industrial tool which I use in the hundreds of carats to cut and polish coloured stones on a daily basis. Anything less than the best i.e. D, Flawless is as much rubbish in a diamond as it is in Quartz.

The last time I bought a diamond took over a year to obtain an acceptable stone and I got to reject much rubbish to achieve my requirements, trying to pass off a VVSI as a gem is in my opinion very sad. I appreciate that most people could care less but I have found that gem quality diamonds are extremely rare.

IMHO.Tony.


Kind of picky aren't you Tony? Just send me all the "rubbish" that you find in these, I'm sure that I can unload them on some poor unsuspecting soul. :D

_________________
Michael E.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Clarity grading
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 10:22 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:22 pm
Posts: 20241
Location: San Francisco
My point is, that a 1.00 ct. D flawless and a 1.00ct F, SI1, both cut to ideal proportions are not going to look any different when mounted.
Rap on the D is $28,400/ct.
Rap of the F is $7,700/ct.
:roll:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Clarity grading
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 11:34 pm 
Offline
Gemology Online Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:01 am
Posts: 556
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Hello Barbra,

As much as I agree my buddys wife has only only D, IF stones in her rings and the lady I mentioned above was not impressed when she compared her engagement ring with my buddy's wife's example. If you have nothing to compare with I agree a lesser stone is impressive.

I am just a guy that fixes damaged and abraded coloured gems for the local Vancouver jewellery trade and have no qualifications that would make my opinions viable. I must admit that type 1 gems are unacceptable if they do not exhibit perfection and I do have to admit that lesser types with colour or inclusion deficits may be acceptable to the masses but they are not what impresses me.

My only reason for such a perceived finicky attitude is for personal credibility and to protect my reputation however little that represents. The best available has always worked for me and nobody has faulted me for that. I am sorry if it upsets the more professional subscribers to this forum but I have to stand by my opinion that gem quality diamonds are indeed rare.

Tony.
p.s. Michael E so many of my local diamond dealers love and encourage customers with your attitude and hate people like me.......

_________________
www.thegemdoctor.com
Beautiful British Columbia


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Clarity grading
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 1:19 am 
Offline
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:44 pm
Posts: 1076
Location: Washington State
TheGemDr wrote:
If you have nothing to compare with I agree a lesser stone is impressive.


But when a "lesser" stone can not be distinguished without some training, proper lighting and a loupe it is not possible to be more impressed with the "better" stone, unless the owner tells you all about it, (and then the person listening is liable to be less than impressed, regardless of the stone's pedigree).

TheGemDr wrote:
I am just a guy that fixes damaged and abraded coloured gems for the local Vancouver jewellery trade and have no qualifications that would make my opinions viable. I must admit that type 1 gems are unacceptable if they do not exhibit perfection and I do have to admit that lesser types with colour or inclusion deficits may be acceptable to the masses but they are not what impresses me.


But don't most of the stones that you work on fall into the, "not quite perfect" category? Do you only work on top end goods? If so, that's great, but most of us are not in that boat and are impressed diamonds and colored stones falling farther down the quality tree. I have even been impressed with diamonds in the I1 category and with slight brown overtones, (good cutting and larger sizes help with these)...different strokes I guess.

TheGemDr wrote:
My only reason for such a perceived finicky attitude is for personal credibility and to protect my reputation however little that represents. The best available has always worked for me and nobody has faulted me for that. I am sorry if it upsets the more professional subscribers to this forum but I have to stand by my opinion that gem quality diamonds are indeed rare.

Tony.


Personal credibility comes from honesty, integrity, knowledge and skill. I doubt very much that anyone cares about what sort of gems you possess when your knowledge and skills are on such a high level and well known in the community that you serve. I also doubt if anyone here is upset by your views, but many would certainly view diamonds in the SI range and better as being gem diamonds, (still more rare than silver and maybe even gold, but that's all relative isn't it?)

TheGemDr wrote:
p.s. Michael E so many of my local diamond dealers love and encourage customers with your attitude and hate people like me.......


Having had a small retail place for a few years my attitude was forced to be more in line with my customers. This was in a small rural area and very few people had a lot of money. Diamonds have been marketed as a, "must have" for a wedding ring for 3 or 4 generations in the U.S. and most of the people who used to come in my shop wanted a diamond for the ladies wedding ring. Not being one to argue, certainly wanting to make a sale, AND possibly create a customer who would return, I would spend a significant amount of time looking for what they wanted at a price which they could afford, (this was before the internet). My attitude quickly became one of, "Get the customer the best looking diamond possible within their budget" This invariably meant buying a stone which was in the SI1 to VS2 range and maybe a G or H in color. If you held one of these up to a similarly cut D flawless, you could certainly see a color difference, but they had to be held fairly close to each other. Could you see a clarity difference...I never could. Why pay so much more for a slight color difference and something that has no discernible clarity difference once set? On the other hand, these people were not trying to impress anyone with having the BEST, but just having the best for the money they were spending.

Are diamonds rare? Compared to what? Big clean ones are, crappy melee aren't. Somewhere in between lies the dividing line and I'm guessing that's right at about the SI1 line.

_________________
Michael E.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Clarity grading
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:53 pm 
Offline
Established Member

Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:36 am
Posts: 21
<<My point is, that a 1.00 ct. D flawless and a 1.00ct F, SI1, both cut to ideal proportions are not going to look any different when mounted.
Rap on the D is $28,400/ct.
Rap of the F is $7,700/ct.
>>

I go further to say they may not look much different unmounted, especially if it is an invisible cloud inclusion. If it is just one diamond loose and I am communicating the clarity to the buyer, I would describe the inclusions - basically my attitude is that the clarity grading criteria can be too loose for my tastes.

On the original topic of clarity grading, those who have been in the diamond business for a long time have been accustomed to the minor differences, whether or not the retail consumers visually can appreciate any difference. Changing the scale is not the answer but maybe creating a new one entirely for a different purpose might be for your sales purposes.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 4 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Gemology Style ported to phpBB3 by Christian Bullock