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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:49 pm 
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I think it’s brilliant. Show synthetics for what they are; a good substitute for moissonite.
We had synthetic diamond in our showcase for the last two years (just got rid of them) From our information, the prices were pegged at 30% less than natural: with no regard to cost of production.
When asked what I though, I would explain that Cz sold for $200.00 a carat in 1980, now for pennys a carat, and that I expect a similar adjustment with synthetic diamond over time.
Absolutely; hit em where it hurts, in the pocketbook. And with DeBeers branding it should be difficult for other sellers to pretend thier synthetic goods are any more valuable.


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:36 pm 
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https://www.jckonline.com/editorial-art ... -334288201 If I can get very high quality melee at such a low cost, I might set more of my stones. If Debeers thinks I'm emotionally shallow, that's ok. :D

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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:49 pm 
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Melee @$800/ is a little steep.....but a 1.0ct @ $800 seems.....reasonable.

When it comes to advertising strategy and marketing, De Beers wrote the book. Can't say I'm surprised.


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:51 pm 
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Barbara,
The $800/ct for a 1 ct stone is De Beers retail, dealer cost should be at least a 50% discount from that when the dust settles.

Also this includes yellow, pink/red/, blue, and green stones. So, is there even a difference between lab grown colored diamonds, and irradiated colored diamonds? For me no, grown or grown and treated, all the same to me.

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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:11 pm 
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I applaud what DeBeers is doing. Seeing lab created diamonds in jewelry stores with outrageous prices has made me quite concerned. Actually I think 800 a carat is pretty high, though if it is in a finished piece of jewelry sold directly to the consumer, that is probably reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:27 am 
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dchallener wrote:
I applaud what DeBeers is doing. Seeing lab created diamonds in jewelry stores with outrageous prices has made me quite concerned. Actually I think 800 a carat is pretty high, though if it is in a finished piece of jewelry sold directly to the consumer, that is probably reasonable.


I agree with you. For smalls $800/carat represents an 8 X markup from what I can buy nice goods out of India. Since the Indian cutters are mostly all buying their rough from the Chinese lab factory, I have to believe that De Beers costs will be even lower. I just looked at Stuller, and they are pricing at wholesale 0.02 carat Moissanite RBC at about $265/ct. Surely, a lab diamond at $100/ct is a better choice than a Moissanite at more than double that. The whole simulant world looks to be disrupted as well.

At the current prices that larger Lab Diamonds are being sold they are positioned as a choice in comparison to mined diamonds. If De Beers can successfully drive the prices down to compete with Moissanite, they will be compared at that level, and not a threat to "Rare Natural Diamonds".

Can you imagine?

Man takes woman out for the most romantic and expensive restaurant in town. Proceeds to get down on one knee and says "Will you marry me? Look at this beautiful lab created diamond ring I bought you to symbolize my love for you." When just that day she was reading one of her fashion magazines and saw an add advertising that lab diamonds are for trivial event gifts, and self purchased cheap fashion items. How will she explain that to her friends?

I guess the bright side of that will be no wedding, no kids, population control, and less impact on the environment. LOL!

I have no doubt that De Beers has the marketing know how, and the muscle to create that perception. All they needed was a company to advertise for so they don't get stopped by antitrust and predatory pricing laws. The big risk is that it cheapens perceptions of diamonds of all kinds. This is a risk that De Beers has no choice in taking. They must do it now. This will be fascinating to watch. If I were in business school right now this would be my PHD thesis subject.


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:35 pm 
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Remember when folks thought that synthetic rubies, sapphires and emeralds would kill the genuine market?
Didn't happen.
As you point out, different customers.

It will be a conundrum when the intention is to deceive. Synthetic goods set in platinum... salted parcels.

Currently devices which identify diamond types are somewhat useful, as 98% of natural diamonds are Ia.... but, these units need to get far more sophisticated.
"Further testing is needed" is not good enough.


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:45 pm 
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Maybe melee isn't the right term. I would be interested in accent diamonds between 15 points and a half carat. I realize that 800 is the retail number. I would be looking for a 3-400 price point for clean , well cut stones. If I could get two 1/2 ct trapizoids for 400 bucks I might set my red beryl in a platinum mens ring. Probably would never wear it. :D

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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:49 pm 
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Barbra Voltaire wrote:


Currently devices which identify diamond types are somewhat useful, as 98% of natural diamonds are Ia.... but, these units need to get far more sophisticated.
"Further testing is needed" is not good enough.


In Vegas at one of the lab diamond booths I was shown a report from one of the biggest institutions on a 2 1/2 ct RBC where the conclusion was that natural or Created could not be determined. Some even with the most sophisticated equipment sometimes separation is not possible.

I am only buying 1A diamonds these days. Why take a chance.


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:08 am 
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Do you have a gizmo which will determine that, Steve?


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:51 am 
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Barbara,
The determination of type 1A diamonds is the basis for all of the lab grown diamond detectors on the market today. Around 98% of mined diamonds are of Type 1A. As far as we know, labs are not able to make type 1A diamonds. So, if the diamond is identified as type 1A it is presumed natural, and passes the tester. The 2% that are identified as type II are scored as refer to lab for further separation. At the lab, more extensive testing is done to determine status.

I think a more accurate description for the testers is "screener", because all they can really do is screen for type 1A. If it is true that no one has figured out how to make type 1A then this is enough. Let us hope it is true.

I must have seen a couple of dozen different screeners at the show. They ranged in price from about $300 to many thousands depending on form factor, amount of automation, and volume capability. For under $500 you can get a very nice portable, and reliable solution that works well for loose and mounted stones in almost all sizes.

One interesting thing is that the lab diamonds have a brown tint rather than a yellow tint. This is problematic when trying to use them for a master color grading set. This is also the main issue with the CZ sets I see on the market. I wish they could grow them with yellow tints. I would have two sets, one yellow and one brown. This should produce more accuracy with any white stones I need to grade. The yellow, pink, blue, green, lab stones are available in a broad range of tone. I think with lab diamonds a very accurate master set could be created for each color. So, once prices fall to $100/carat one could create a complete set of master stones in all colors for a big, but not crazy price.

Of course this may not be needed. There are machines that are almost ready to be released that can do cut, color and clarity grading with much more consistent than any human involved system. Cut, and color seem obvious, but I am amazed that they have figured out clarity in the VVS, VVS1, IF range. I saw demos and it looked like it worked.

Technology is growing fast. It is almost to the point that between spectroscopy, and scanning technology affordable machines will do all the gem ID, and grading tasks that gemmologists have been doing.


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:10 pm 
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I ask because a colleague of mine (professional appraiser) spent $750 on a screener. Purchased several synthetics at the Vegas show and discovered her screener to be totally unreliable.

The EXA is reliable, but it is a $7,000 investment.

The EXA will also seperate natural IIA from synthetic, but can not determine if the diamond has been subjected to HPHT treatment.

Makes sense that synthetic type IIa have a brownish tint, like many natural IIa. That is why HPHT is used...to get those pesky carbon atoms to shape up.


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:04 pm 
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Hi Barbra - can a Raman distinguish a 1A diamond? Or do you need UV?


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:10 pm 
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Barbra Voltaire wrote:
I ask because a colleague of mine (professional appraiser) spent $750 on a screener. Purchased several synthetics at the Vegas show and discovered her screener to be totally unreliable.
The EXA is reliable, but it is a $7,000 investment.
The EXA will also seperate natural IIA from synthetic, but can not determine if the diamond has been subjected to HPHT treatment.
Makes sense that synthetic type IIa have a brownish tint, like many natural IIa. That is why HPHT is used...to get those pesky carbon atoms to shape up.


Barbra,
You don't need to subject brownish type 2a to hpht to make the crystal colorless. There's a much lower cost process to do that. I cannot reveal that at this time due to NDA.
BTW, in theory, you should be able to make type 1a using hpht.

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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:20 pm 
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thomas.adamas wrote:
BTW, in theory, you should be able to make type 1a using hpht.


What will we do when those become commercially available? :shock:


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