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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:23 pm 
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dchallener wrote:
Hi Barbra - can a Raman distinguish a 1A diamond? Or do you need UV?

To my knowledge, the raman will only identify "diamond".
I do not have a collection of synthetics to play around with.


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:25 pm 
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Quote:
Barbra,
You don't need to subject brownish type 2a to hpht to make the crystal colorless. There's a much lower cost process to do that. I cannot reveal that at this time due to NDA.
BTW, in theory, you should be able to make type 1a using hpht.


A type Ia contains nitrogen, by definition, right?
A type IIa does not contain appreciable nitrogen, by definition, right?


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:29 pm 
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Barbra Voltaire wrote:
Quote:
Barbra,
You don't need to subject brownish type 2a to hpht to make the crystal colorless. There's a much lower cost process to do that. I cannot reveal that at this time due to NDA.
BTW, in theory, you should be able to make type 1a using hpht.


A type Ia contains nitrogen, by definition, right?
A type IIa does not contain appreciable nitrogen, by definition, right?


No, type 1a contains nitrogen in aggregates, while type 1b contains non-adjacent atomic nitrogen in the carbon lattice. You can make Type 1b easily by hpht. It is the common yellow industrial diamond crystals.
You can distinguish between the various type using Fourier Transform Infrared Spectroscopy.
Here is a brochure pdf link from the Hooge Raad voor Diamant:
https://www.hrdantwerp.com/en/download- ... d2299f6d23

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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:51 pm 
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So if they can make yellow series HPHT diamonds, why can't they make a good yellow tinted master color set? The two researchers in the De Beers synthetic Lab I spoke to say that they have tried and cannot do it.


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:07 pm 
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Steve, I know that the fellow who sold me my diamond masters (Gary Wright) was liquidating the natural diamond sets because he felt synthetic diamond masters were on the horizon.
Perhaps his liquidation was premature.

Thomas, I think you edited your post a wee bit.
Let's be clear:
A Type II diamond can not be altered to a Type I diamond by any means we are aware of today.
For those interested in how HPHT Treatment can alter diamonds, please read this article:
https://www.springer.com/cda/content/do ... p175074651


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:15 pm 
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That is the position the industry finds itself in. No one wants to take the risk to make sets, and both the synthetic and simulant based sets are far from satisfactory at this time. The CZ based sets sell well, and are being used broadly these days. I guess they are close enough for mounted jewelry and antiques. No one cares what gemologists say anymore on loose stones. They all want full lab reports anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:22 pm 
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Barbra Voltaire wrote:
Let's be clear:
A Type II diamond can not be altered to a Type I diamond by any means we are aware of today.


No, type 2 does not contain any significant nitrogen. No means I know of exist to put nitrogen into the crystal lattice of any existing type 2 diamond, thus turn it into type 1.

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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:50 am 
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ASA is offering a timely seminar
GJ118-WEB - ID of Synthetic Diamonds with Portable Instruments
Description:
Quote:
Webinar Course Description

The goal is to train gemologist/appraiser to identify different types of natural diamonds and synthetic diamonds using standard instruments (i.e. U.V. lamp and polariscope mounted on microscope). Low nitrogen natural diamonds often have a typical “tatami pattern” (fine intersecting parallel dislocations) when view under Cross Polarized Filters (CPF), while synthetic type IIa HPHT-grown diamonds will not show any pattern and many CVD-grown diamonds would show “columnar structure”. UV Fluorescence of synthetic Diamonds is stronger under SWUV than under LWUV fluorescence unlike natural diamonds that typically fluoresce stronger under LWUV.

Under fluorescence cubo-octahedral patterns are seen sometimes in HPHT-grown diamonds. SW Phosphorescence is common in HPHT-grown diamonds, colorless and blue. After SWUV exposure phosphorescence normally occurs for synthetic diamond, unlike natural diamonds that phosphoresce only rarely, mainly in Chameleon and Blue IIb diamonds under SW. If tested diamonds are Type Ia based on strong pattern under CPF or LW> SW fluorescence (usually blue) they would “pass” screening process as natural diamond.


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:54 am 
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thomas.adamas wrote:

No, type 2 does not contain any significant nitrogen. No means I know of exist to put nitrogen into the crystal lattice of any existing type 2 diamond, thus turn it into type 1.


Uhmmm, OK.
I'd need a bit more empirical evidence to swallow that.

What this infers is that a synthetic Type II diamond could be impregnated with nitrogen and fool the instruments. How would that be done?


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:03 pm 
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Barbra Voltaire wrote:
thomas.adamas wrote:
No, type 2 does not contain any significant nitrogen. No means I know of exist to put nitrogen into the crystal lattice of any existing type 2 diamond, thus turn it into type 1.


Uhmmm, OK.
I'd need a bit more empirical evidence to swallow that.

What this infers is that a synthetic Type II diamond could be impregnated with nitrogen and fool the instruments. How would that be done?


No it does not, I have stated the opposite. "No means I know of exist to put nitrogen into the crystal lattice of any existing type 2 diamond, this turn it into type 1."

I wonder if you have a misinterpretation because of subtle differences in regional dialects?

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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:36 pm 
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This was the post which confused me:
Quote:
You don't need to subject brownish type 2a to hpht to make the crystal colorless. There's a much lower cost process to do that. I cannot reveal that at this time due to NDA.
BTW, in theory, you should be able to make type 1a using hpht.


This quote made it sound like, in theory, one can turn a type 2a into a 1a.
Of course, that is not the case so I guess I misunderstood what you meant.


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:11 pm 
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1bwana1 wrote:
dchallener wrote:
I applaud what DeBeers is doing. Seeing lab created diamonds in jewelry stores with outrageous prices has made me quite concerned. Actually I think 800 a carat is pretty high, though if it is in a finished piece of jewelry sold directly to the consumer, that is probably reasonable.


I agree with you. For smalls $800/carat represents an 8 X markup from what I can buy nice goods out of India. Since the Indian cutters are mostly all buying their rough from the Chinese lab factory, I have to believe that De Beers costs will be even lower. I just looked at Stuller, and they are pricing at wholesale 0.02 carat Moissanite RBC at about $265/ct. Surely, a lab diamond at $100/ct is a better choice than a Moissanite at more than double that. The whole simulant world looks to be disrupted as well.

At the current prices that larger Lab Diamonds are being sold they are positioned as a choice in comparison to mined diamonds. If De Beers can successfully drive the prices down to compete with Moissanite, they will be compared at that level, and not a threat to "Rare Natural Diamonds".

Can you imagine?

Man takes woman out for the most romantic and expensive restaurant in town. Proceeds to get down on one knee and says "Will you marry me? Look at this beautiful lab created diamond ring I bought you to symbolize my love for you." When just that day she was reading one of her fashion magazines and saw an add advertising that lab diamonds are for trivial event gifts, and self purchased cheap fashion items. How will she explain that to her friends?

I guess the bright side of that will be no wedding, no kids, population control, and less impact on the environment. LOL!

I have no doubt that De Beers has the marketing know how, and the muscle to create that perception. All they needed was a company to advertise for so they don't get stopped by antitrust and predatory pricing laws. The big risk is that it cheapens perceptions of diamonds of all kinds. This is a risk that De Beers has no choice in taking. They must do it now. This will be fascinating to watch. If I were in business school right now this would be my PHD thesis subject.
I realize that that 100/ct. Indian cut material is out there (47th st is full of it). Only problem is that it is cut by little kids working 12 hour days at the rate of 4 cents per stone.The lady who has to explain her lab diamond to her friends, that's pretty easy. My lab stone is not rare but neither are the mined stones. As far as a symbol of love, that is just an old ad campaign started by a bunch of low lifes. Colorless diamonds have no soul, De Beers has no soul. They are getting into the lab business because they have to.https://youtu.be/jQHXPWo_b_o

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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:28 pm 
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I hate to rain of this parade of honesty, but do you guys have any idea of how many engagement rings gals have brought me for an appraisal over the years that weren't even close to diamonds?

My first question has always been, "What do you think this is?" :D

They never answered:
cubic zirconia
moissanite
colorless sapphire
YAG
GGG
strontium titanate
Strontium titanate doublet with synthetic colorless sapphire crown
quartz
zircon

You know what really peeves me? A plated engagement mounting. :evil:


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:12 pm 
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I have to admit I have seen this myself on a few occasions. More than once a woman has shown me a ring, and the guy behind her is begging me with his eyes and hand not to tell her. Awkward for sure, but I always told the truth. Before the flood of lab grown diamonds I was always confident I could tell simulants from diamonds with my eyes. Now, I will need an instrument to make the separation. So functionaly there is no value to a mined diamond over a lab created stone.

I'm am glad that colored stones are in fact rare.

I am so intrigued to watch what is about to happen one way or another.


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 Post subject: Re: De Beers Lab Grown Diamonds
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:41 am 
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A former diamond seller who made a conference on the subject in Paris the day before yesterday stated that basically, De Beers' strategy was :
"Let's join them since we cannot beat them".

He said that very soon everybody will be able to order easily synthetic diamonds with whatever color, size... for cheap.
He supposed that manufacturers will be able to put inclusions inside the synthetics to make them look more real.

Actually the name of his conference was : The calm before the tempest.


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