New Mineral Named After GIA’s John Koivula
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 Post subject: fresh water/salt water natural pearls(no cultured)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:09 pm 
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hi all,
this is the first time i got enough courage to start a new thread here,the reason i never got the courage was abundence of knowledge loaded everywhere on this forum on almost every topic or doubt i ever had till date.
i really appreciate everyone to whome i have read and gained knowledge.
and my sincere thanks to people who started this concept.

this pearl section has almost no movement.very few topics,and almost nothing about natural fresh water or natural salt water pearls.anything i found on GO is all about cultured pearls.
i m wondering nobody is interested in real natural pearls or they are so fond of cultured pearls that they forgot the true natural beauty?

i dont know how to start.

first i wish to know how many members here have experience with pearl testing laboratory in mumbai,india?
i wud really appriciate if you people tell your experience here about this laboratory.

i have got some pearls tested by this laboratory in past few years,and during all this process i got to meet many pearl dealrs in mumbai as well as other parts of india.
here the problem is that for indian dealers the only natural pearl is the one which is certified by this mumbai laboratory.everything else is cultured/fake or anything but not real.
funny thing is that even if i have a pearl crtified by this lab,and the certificate is old,buyer wants a fresh certificate,i never understood the reason behind this untill,once my pearls failed though i had 6 month old certificate from same laboratory.
i asked the lab people have they upgraded their technology,to my surprise they did no upgradation for last few years.
then a fellow dealer who was also present in the lab told me that this is not unusual with this lab,he told me that if i re submit my rejected pearls,i have chances that they pass it as real.
to check his claim i submitted 1 pearl which they rejected one day ago,and wow this time my pearl was certified natural pearl.
technically its all foolish,i cant understand the reason behind this.
now i have got a pair of natural fresh water pearls 9.5 mm each.
its certified by GIA.
irony is that indian pearl dealrs are saying they dont trust GIA,and they will buy my pearls only if i get certificate from mumbai lab.though i have gone to the mumbai lab,but few big dealers have already expressed their doubts that my pearls will not get certificate from mumbai.

i m wondering how can mumbai lab fail a pearl certified by GIA or SSEF?
my understanding is that both GIA and SSEF have developed highly technical process to test pearls and mumbai lab stands no where in front of them.
i will be travellling to this mumbai lab soon and update u people about the out come.
what are your views about possibility of a pearl rejected by a smaller laboratory though the pearl already has a GIA certificate?

if everybody concludes there is some foul play,then i feel i must start a revolution to generate awareness about their unfair practices,but before i hit them,i have to stand on solid ground with evidence.

i have one question: if i send a pearl strand to GIA or SSEF,and they find cultured pearls mixed with real pearls,will they pick the cultured ones out? or will they mark the cultured ones so that i can remove them later? or they will return my pearl strand as it is with a certificate that this pearl strand has a mix of cultured as well as natural pearls?

i have attached the image of my pearl pair and their certificate,i wish you people give your opinion on their beauty and rarity as this is the first time i have encountered fresh water natural pearls,earlier i have always seen salt water natural pearls.


Attachment:
File comment: certificate
gia cert 9.5 mm pearl pair.jpg
gia cert 9.5 mm pearl pair.jpg [ 38.42 KiB | Viewed 7000 times ]



Attachment:
File comment: Picture of my pearl pair,they are natural fresh water pearls.
pearls natural gia 9.5mm.jpg
pearls natural gia 9.5mm.jpg [ 38.53 KiB | Viewed 7000 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: fresh water/salt water natural pearls(no cultured)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:26 pm 
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if pearls get stamped cultured one day and natural the other there appears to be something wrong, one would think... It'll be very interesting to see what your GIA-certed pearls come back as.


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 Post subject: Re: fresh water/salt water natural pearls(no cultured)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:39 pm 
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Tim wrote:
if pearls get stamped cultured one day and natural the other there appears to be something wrong, one would think... It'll be very interesting to see what your GIA-certed pearls come back as.

yeah i will write in the outcome, no comments on pearls appearence?

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 Post subject: Re: fresh water/salt water natural pearls(no cultured)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:46 pm 
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Sorry, I know jack doodoo about pearls...


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 Post subject: Re: fresh water/salt water natural pearls(no cultured)
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:31 am 
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Your pearls actually look allright quality wise. I am also curious to see the new report. I have never seen any natural FWPs that round in real life.

Fresh water pearl mussels have been protected by law here in Sweden since 1968 but before that lots of pearls where produced here. The most famous are the so called Brahe pearls. A necklace put together during the 17th century and today owned by one of the swedish nobility families. Not even those famous pearls are that round...

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 Post subject: Re: fresh water/salt water natural pearls(no cultured)
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:50 pm 
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Conny Forsberg wrote:
Your pearls actually look allright quality wise. I am also curious to see the new report. I have never seen any natural FWPs that round in real life.

Fresh water pearl mussels have been protected by law here in Sweden since 1968 but before that lots of pearls where produced here. The most famous are the so called Brahe pearls. A necklace put together during the 17th century and today owned by one of the swedish nobility families. Not even those famous pearls are that round...

thanx for writing in,i showed them to an antique dealer here in india who specialise in pearls,he said in 40 years of his career he has never seen anything like this in shape apart from cultured ones.
color is pure white,no overtone which is another rare thing to find,i just wanted people here to have a look on them and admire the beauty before they take rest in some private locker :D

irony about the mumbai/indian pearl lab is that they dont issue reports for pearls which they think are not natural,they just return the specimen submitted so i wont be able to post here any picture of certificate in case they say my pearls are not real.

apart from mumbai lab issue,do u people think after having a GIa certificate for pearls,i need to get another paper?
i have experience with top laboratories issuing different origin certificates for same stone but here origin is not an issue,its a simple question of these pearls being natural or cultured,and this should be pretty basic think for a pearl testing lab like GIA,my idea is it shud be simple like identifying a natural gemstone vs identifying a synthetic gemstone.

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 Post subject: Re: fresh water/salt water natural pearls(no cultured)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:37 am 
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finally the disaster happened as i expected.the mumbai pearl lab here in india didnt issue a natural pearl certificate for my GIA certified pearls.
i got to learn their working,they perform only two tests to check pearls,first test is X-RAY flouecence,if a pearl shows flourecence under X-RAYS,it is rejected as not natural in the first stage of testing itself.
pearls rejected at the first stage do not go to the second stage of testing.
second stage of testing is X-Radiography.
this lab in mumbai is using the oldest pearl testing technique on this planet,and irony is that dealers in india buy and sell on its paper.
my understanding is that fresh water natural pearls will show flourecence unde x rays,pls update my knowledge if its wrong o incomplete?
salt water pearls do not show any flourecense under x Rays.
this is what i got to learn from pearl deales in mumbai.
one argument was that only BASRA pearls are passed as real natural pearls in mumbai lab,but its not practically true as i got a certificate of natural pearl for one of my pearls which is supposed to be from venejuela.
now i m thinking about sending this venejuela pearl to GIA and see what they write.
ultimately in these times of cultured and immitation pearls flooding the markets,we have to sell a paper instead of a pearl.
same happens with kashmir sapphires,burma rubies and other stones which command premium on their origin. buyer pays for the paper,not for the GEM.

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 Post subject: Re: fresh water/salt water natural pearls(no cultured)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:40 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: fresh water/salt water natural pearls(no cultured)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:40 am 
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if you browse sotheby's or Christie's you'll find rare & expensive pearls in auction houses come with accredited lab report like Gubelin, SSEF, GIA. not Mumbai Lab!?

regarding pearl testing laboratory in Mumbai,India and what you are saying its a local testing laboratory and depending on culture the dealers might only accept that report but as you said a laboratory like that is not something worldwide know or accept its report,

your pearls are really amazing and unique to be almost round and natural fresh water pearls, do you know its country of origin? indeed thats very rare to exist if its true i suggest you also get SSEF "Swiss Gemmological Institute" report as second supportive report for your pearls so there would be no doubt.


i have a natural string of salt water pearls from Bahrain and i've sent them to GIA, the Conclusion of report has been mentioned "NATURAL PEARLS" not mentioned if its salt water or fresh water pearls ! i asked GIA what does it mean and about the Environment of my pearls and the replied me:
Quote:
Natural pearls may be found/produced in both saltwater or freshwater, so the description “natural pearls” is just stating that they are natural and does not indicate anything about the environment they were formed in nor where that place was specifically.
anyway it seem they couldn't make sure what Environment my pearls are from.

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 Post subject: Re: fresh water/salt water natural pearls(no cultured)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:58 am 
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Hi,

both GIA and SSEF provides for CAT analisys, if i was in your shoes i would forget about Mumbai lab results and send those pearls to Christie's or Sotheby's with GIA reports.... :wink:
just my 2c
ciao
alberto

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 Post subject: Re: fresh water/salt water natural pearls(no cultured)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:51 am 
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And...you might want to contact the GIA and make sure the report you posted was actually issued by them.....and refer to the pearls you picture.


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 Post subject: Re: fresh water/salt water natural pearls(no cultured)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:52 am 
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Alberto wrote:
Hi,

both GIA and SSEF provides for CAT analisys, if i was in your shoes i would forget about Mumbai lab results and send those pearls to Christie's or Sotheby's with GIA reports.... :wink:
just my 2c
ciao
alberto

Alberto,i talked to christies and they said market for my property is down currently so i should better sell them in the market.i dont know whats ur experience is with auction houses,but i have tried to offer them top deals many times and every time i got same reply that market for my item is down.
i learnt from some other dealers that they dont accept deals from anybody walking into their offices,you need to be a top dealer well recognised in ur trade before they accept ur items,they do this to avoid top gems flooding the auction houses as they do not want prices to crash,its in their personal interest that a rare thing remain rare and should not be auctioned regularly.
they didnt accept real top gem quality kashmir sapphires from me,i sold it to somebody in america who later sold it some somebody in london and the stone was auctioned.funny game.
or they accept jewellery or gems or anything which has some history associated with a popular person of their times.
so i m neither a top dealer,nor do i have a history,i m still breathing,may be after my death they wud accept items from my family :D
i m not worried to encash my pearls,i know they are a treasure to keep,i will sure sell them someday,but my finances are not effected even if i hold them for 10 years.
i still spend hours adoring their beauty and everybody i show them to,becomes speechless,and that feeling gives me more pleasure than the money could give if i sell them. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: fresh water/salt water natural pearls(no cultured)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:54 am 
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Barbra Voltaire wrote:
And...you might want to contact the GIA and make sure the report you posted was actually issued by them.....and refer to the pearls you picture.

i have no doubt about the certificates,but just to have one ore paper i will submit them to SSEF during hong kong show,though they dont test pearls during hong kong show,but may be they will take the pearls to switzerland and issue a report from there.

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 Post subject: Re: fresh water/salt water natural pearls(no cultured)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:13 am 
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Then contact the GIA and see what they say about it.
Their pearl testing is excellent.

If you have an identification report from GIA, I wouldn't seek another.


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 Post subject: Re: fresh water/salt water natural pearls(no cultured)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:18 am 
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roshanravan wrote:
if you browse sotheby's or Christie's you'll find rare & expensive pearls in auction houses come with accredited lab report like Gubelin, SSEF, GIA. not Mumbai Lab!?

regarding pearl testing laboratory in Mumbai,India and what you are saying its a local testing laboratory and depending on culture the dealers might only accept that report but as you said a laboratory like that is not something worldwide know or accept its report,

your pearls are really amazing and unique to be almost round and natural fresh water pearls, do you know its country of origin? indeed thats very rare to exist if its true i suggest you also get SSEF "Swiss Gemmological Institute" report as second supportive report for your pearls so there would be no doubt.


i have a natural string of salt water pearls from Bahrain and i've sent them to GIA, the Conclusion of report has been mentioned "NATURAL PEARLS" not mentioned if its salt water or fresh water pearls ! i asked GIA what does it mean and about the Environment of my pearls and the replied me:
Quote:
Natural pearls may be found/produced in both saltwater or freshwater, so the description “natural pearls” is just stating that they are natural and does not indicate anything about the environment they were formed in nor where that place was specifically.
anyway it seem they couldn't make sure what Environment my pearls are from.

your id suggests u r an indian? personally i have no trust in mumbai lab reports but dealers here only buy with mumbai certificate,they say GIA or SSEF has no value for them,problem is that i can sell anything out of india,but not everybody can.
my pearls originated from missisippi river in united states of america,and the mussel type(UNIO) written on GIA certificate confirms their origin.
the person from whome i bought them had a mussels and shells processing license some 30 years ago.these mussels and shells were used to make buttons for garments.
he had these pearls in his vault for some 30 years before i bought them through an american friend.
before they were submitted to GIA,i knew the story behind their origin,and the mussel type GIA wrote,confirmed that the story is true.

regarding ur pearls:
GIA or SSEF writes the mussel type,and this mussel type plays an important role to know where ur pearls might have come from.in ur case they wud not have reached on any conclusion to write mussel type,thats why they only wrote them to be natural pearl.
if they fail to recogonise the mussel type from which ur pearls were born,they cant write enviorenment eg: saltwater or fresh water.
my idea is ur pearls may have been bought from behrain,but they didnt come from behrain mussel.
behrain pearl mussels died due to gulf war and ever increasing pollution in its sea,i talked to a marine enviorenment engg. who dived in the behrain sea and travelled all along its coastline,and he told me that he saw mud and garbage everywhere in the sea,no mussel can survive in the wild sea which is polluted.
historically behrain was a pearl trade center for centuries,but most of its pearls came from indonesia and phillipines,and these two countries are still supplying pearls to behrain,and buyers buy them thinking they are coming from behrain sea.
pearls from indonesia and phillipines comes from same mussel type which was in behrain.so technically these pearls are same.
one of my friend is a member of dubai pearl dealers organisation,i dont remember its name but you need to be an elite member of the trade to be its member,and membership fee is 200 thousand USD.the last annual get together he attended had a lenghty discussion about behrain loosing its pearl mussels,fact is that whatever pearls are coming from behrain sea are small and very irregular in shape,else everything else is being imported.
i m curious to know what SSEF writes about ur pearl string,i hope u wil be sending them to SSEF for a second opinion?
it will be a delight for me and possibly all of us if u post their pictures here :)

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