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 Post subject: Re: New to faceting, need help mounting mast!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:57 pm 
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I'm no expert by any means, but if I understand the problem you can set it up so you can do everything you need except the girdle because the lap is too low at that point.

Can you just stack two laps on the platen? I don't know how your laps fasten to the platen although if it is heavy enough you can probably spin it anyway. Make your height there and cut a test, see if it works for you.


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 Post subject: Re: New to faceting, need help mounting mast!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:31 pm 
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Hi Steve, had you mixed up with Chris yesterday, here I am trying to tell you how I think your gear should work while you have it working already and know the details. Just enthusiasm on my part.

Chris it seems things have narrowed down a bit, the quill/indexing arrangement is too long, that's definate. It also took me a while to figure out that the bottom stop is also the fine height adjustment, I was just having a dumb moment, it does look as though it is taking up more room than it needs to. As you have time on your hands maybe the best approach would be to trim a little at a time until you have a comfortable arrangement, you have the mounting plate well figured out so the rest should come natural enough.

If you can, visit a facetor who has a little experience to show you some pointers before beginning, it may save you a few headaches.
I took the other option which is ' Make faceting difficult', never found the author, but I turned a lot of good rough into powder. The highlight of that period was tipping the waste water from my drip tray back into the drip tank then trying to figure out where all the scratches were coming from, seemed innocent enough after a few too many coctails.

Good luck with the project, I had a look at your Opals, very nice, wish you as much luck with the faceting.

Sean.


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 Post subject: Re: New to faceting, need help mounting mast!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:05 pm 
Thanks for the good advice and the kind remarks Sean, I can tell that you have a very patient and kind demeanor!

I decided to take the plunge and shorten the quill like we all pretty much decided needed to happen. I don't know WHY they made it SO long, in comparison to the height of the mast, I sat and thought about this for awhile, and really, the longer the quill length is, the taller the mast has to be in order to accommodate it's range of motion.

I cut off a piece of the brass sleeve to shorten it, and also a piece of the steel shaft to allow it to penetrate the brass sleeve further, and then I drilled a new hole for the set screw to lock it all into place. As you can see, I did not shorten the spring, it's just locked in there tighter now in the gear, since the spring is compressed more now.

I hope thid fixes the issue and allows it to be put to use soon instead of talking about it...lol.

Here is the new and improved "sport model" short version of the quill ;)

Here it is below before the modifications took place:
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Here it is below after the modification made to shorten it:
Image

Below are pictures of the various states of dis assembly, showing the separate pieces, and also the pieces I cut off with the chop saw ;)
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Below is how it looked before being altered. This is actually the vendor sales pic for it's advertisement:
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 Post subject: Re: New to faceting, need help mounting mast!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:13 pm 
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Now you're cooking with gas!

I would also consider a less bulky locking ring for the mast---- to get lower. (if needed)


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 Post subject: Re: New to faceting, need help mounting mast!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:00 pm 
MK wrote:
Now you're cooking with gas!

I would also consider a less bulky locking ring for the mast---- to get lower. (if needed)


Yeah, I looked at doing something with that locking ring, but I can't really, not without a machine shop anyhow, and or the proper tools to do it.

The threading penetrates fairly deep into the ring, about half way, so there is the ability to make it go about 1/2 higher than the total height of that ring, and the bottom part that isn't threaded can't be trimmed down, because the locking set screw is on the far bottom end, and I would have to re-tap a new threaded hole for that screw further up, but really, I would only be able to trim off a few mm anyhow, so it's not worth it.

About the only real way I could make that shorter would be to trim down the top adjustment ring, but then, I'd be trimming off the locking set screw, which would not be a good idea, as the height could wander on me without that, so again, not a good idea, I think I'm stuck with that ring unfortunately.

I haven't had the chance to do a "mock alignment" of the mounting bracket, to see where the height would have to be yet, once I do, I'll be able to see if shortening that quill made it better, and able to do the settings it is supposed to do.
I think I will also take the advice of raising up the lap itself, either by doubling up one lap on top of another, or by getting a thick aluminum disk custom made to make it higher. Maybe I could even use the rotors from my minivan once they are worn out, haha.

Thanks
Chris ;)


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 Post subject: Re: New to faceting, need help mounting mast!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:41 pm 
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Chris, I would say you seem to have things pretty well in hand for the moment. The only comment I have at this point is about the hard stop you made for the protractor.

I notice you placed it above the brass pointer in your pictures. When you go to use it, be sure it is BELOW the brass pointer. You want the quill to fall to the hard stop. It won't really work if you try to rise to the stop while cutting. When you try your first stone, the reason for this will be obvious.

Good luck!

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Also on Etsy

If you are lost at sea, there is never a cruise ship around, but you can usually find a rowboat.


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 Post subject: Re: New to faceting, need help mounting mast!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:59 pm 
Hi Steve, thanks for the info ;)

I don't think I'll EVER "have things pretty well in hand", but for now, I've got this issue under control I think.

It just threw me for a loop that it just would not fit for both the upper and lower range of actions, I don't know WHY they designed it that way, perhaps it was simply only meant to do basic cuts, and was never really designed properly to perform the way it needed to.

I mean how could someone release a product that does not correctly work....oh wait, I'm typing on one of those products right now, it's called WINDOWS.
LOL

But seriously, it would be nice to pick up something for one out of the box and have it actually WORK the way it was intended to, without any modifications or messing around, there is no real reason I should have to take a chop saw to a faceting device to get it to go to all the positions it is supposed to go into already!

The only bottle neck now is that stupid collar for locking the height, it definitely is WAY too large, as if I remove that, I can raise the mount far up on the side of the flat lap enough to solve all the issues, shortening it did help, and made everything "fit" at least, but I'm still working at the top of the mast for all the normal cuts, as to lower the base of the mast low enough to cut at 90 degrees, it still has to be very low, as shown in the picture, that hasn't changed by shortening the quill, but shortening that DID allow me to be able to mount it on the side of the flat lap where I would to do a 90 degree cut, and still be able to cut all the way to 0 degrees now, which it wouldn't do before, as before, it would have ran out of mast and fell off if I tried to do that.

I think I need to figure out some kind of "external" height locking mechanism that is not mounted "on" the mast post at the 90 degree position, but rather mounted "next" to the mast post, possibly something like a "C" clamp type thing where when I turn the screw, it raises the quill assembly higher. I'll figure it out.

The main thing is that I can mount it now, and after doing that, the fun really begins!

I'm sure I'll turn a vast supply of rough into powder myself, it's somewhat inevitable at first, that is why I will be faceting ugly included amethyst, and things like that until I get the hang of it, and can facet something meaningful, knowing that I will not ruin it.

Do you know of a step by step faceting resource online perhaps, that is free, and shows EVERY step of faceting, from start to finish for a basic beginners cut pattern stone? I have read a TON of online material, but even the stuff that seems to be geared for the beginner seems to leave out a whole lot, and it is somehow expected that you've read a volume of books about it first when they try to show you how to facet.

I would like a real beginners from the ground up faceting guide that is online hopefully, and free of charge. I'm sure there are some resources out there, I just don't know where they are, and the problem with the internet now is that there is TOO much stuff out there to sort through, and you can never find anything!

thanks for your help!

Chris ;)


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 Post subject: Re: New to faceting, need help mounting mast!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:39 am 
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Hi Chris,
A good starting point for online info would be Bob's Rock shop, there are many online designs for novices as well as a wealth of relevant information and links to guilds etc. The Simple Jack design is a good practical design and easy to cut, comes with all the instructions to walk you through it.

I've tried copying the link for you but no success, maybe somebody else can give it a bash.

Sean.


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 Post subject: Re: New to faceting, need help mounting mast!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:00 am 
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Here, just scroll to the Simple Jack. This page has the designs.
http://www.rockhounds.com/rockshop/gem_designs/design_index.shtml

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 Post subject: Re: New to faceting, need help mounting mast!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:47 pm 
mehoose wrote:
Here, just scroll to the Simple Jack. This page has the designs.
http://www.rockhounds.com/rockshop/gem_designs/design_index.shtml


Thanks for that link, I've been to that page before actually, but what I'm looking for is a tutorial about faceting as if I know NOTHING at all, and have never even seen a faceting machine. This is also so I can show my wife a step by step tutorial and guide from start to finish about every EXACT procedure for faceting a gem, from the very first gluing the lump of rough on, to polishing the very last facet. I want a step by step guide of showing EVERY single step for polishing a gem.

I've decided to throw away what I "think" I know about faceting, and relearn everything, as like I said, the more I read, the more confused I get, and since I have memory issues, I need to program my brain in a step to step fashion of just the basics, and have that solid in my mind before I start "building" on those fundamental principals to add all those "tricks & tips" that make it work "better.

The basic procedure in a step by step guide is what I am looking for, with pictures, that SHOW exactly how it should look, not just a bunch of plain text. Again, the brain injury embarrassingly enough makes it so I cannot read great volumes of info at one time, and as they say, "a picture says a thousand words". Maybe I should peruse the children's book aisle while I'm at it...lol.

It's not just that though, i mean "saying" what a gem should look like at a certain step and "seeing" what it should look like are 2 different things.

Thanks again for the link.

Chris ;)


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 Post subject: Re: New to faceting, need help mounting mast!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:29 pm 
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I agree with shortening the quill. It reduces play and cantilever problems. As the machine already has an open bearingless trunnion, it's asking for trouble with a long quill arm. The closer to the hard stop the stone is in swept radius, the more accurate and inelastic the hard stop will be.

Maybe you'll get some ideas from the XS3 page for height adjusters, etc.

http://www.gearloose.com/xs3.html


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 Post subject: Re: New to faceting, need help mounting mast!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:26 pm 
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Click here. This might also help.

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I am a slave to cutting a stone completely free of chips and very much enjoying it.


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 Post subject: Re: New to faceting, need help mounting mast!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:20 pm 
I know this is a stupid question, so I've been avoiding asking it, to avoid looking totally stupid, but I have to remember I'm asking about "faceting" techniques, not cabbing, which I would like to think I'm not a complete "expert" at, but at least an advanced student of, enough to make definitely "salable" finished material anyhow ;)

When your faceting, you make a rough cut, at the prescribed angles, at a prescribed grit, meaning firstly the rough cutting, and you will change angles to do all the rough cuts first. Then, you would repeat the SAME procedures, at the same previous angles, only with a finer grit, and repeat that process until totally finished, am I correct?

This would mean that you change all the angles when polishing on the coarse grit to cut all the different angles of the stone, then put a finer grit disk on, and repeat, having to rest all those angles all over again, and repeat until to final polish?

What I am confused about is when the angles are changed, and when the grits are changed, and in what sequence, for example, you would first cut the pavilion of the stone from a preform that is mounted on the dop, and then, you would proceed to cut the girdle, the pavilion, and the culet of the stone, in the SAME rough grit, and THEN repeat the process by changing the disk to a finer one, and then reset at all the previous angles, replicating them exactly on the faceting device, and repeating this procedure until the gem is at the final polish, EXCEPT for the table, which is cut last, after going on the transfer device to a new dop to allow the table and crown to be finished?

What has confused me is if you are to make a cut, and finish that exact part of the gem, (such as cut the pavilion from start to finish before ever changing angles) right to final polish, while still at that angle setting on the faceting device, or if you cut all the different facets of the gem in a rough grit first, (changing from angle to angle as you go) then proceed to repeat all those cuts, thus having to reset all those angles all over again, matching them exactly, with finer and finer grits, until the final polish is done, know what I mean?? Hope I'm making sense!

I get the part that most of what I've read says to pretty much make the gem in 2 stages, cut and polish everything (the pavilion, culet & girdle stage) to the final polish, and then put in the transfer device and then cut and polish that 2nd half of the stone (crown and table stage) until finished polish, but it's all the stuff in between from first cut to final polish, and when the angles get changed that I'm missing.

That tutorial link you posted is very helpful, thank you for that, but for example, it only says:

"The pavilion and future girdle are shaped and polished. "


But it doesn't give that EXACT method on HOW the pavilion and future girdle are shaped and polished, it just ASSUMES you know all that part, and it does not tell you what grits to use, and things like that.
That is the part of the tutorials that seems to kinda be lacking, unless I'm just not reading close enough, that's why I was looking for an EXACT step by step tutorial, so I get all this stuff clear as mud in my head...lol.


Thanks ;)


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 Post subject: Re: New to faceting, need help mounting mast!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:46 pm 
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get this:

http://www.faceters.com/books/learn_to_facet.shtml

should be available from www.silversupplies.com

http://www.silversupplies.com/catalog/b ... ting.shtml


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 Post subject: Re: New to faceting, need help mounting mast!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:38 pm 
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OK. I wrote that article. I will clarify your question as much as possible.

Quote:
When your faceting, you make a rough cut, at the prescribed angles, at a prescribed grit, meaning firstly the rough cutting, and you will change angles to do all the rough cuts first. Then, you would repeat the SAME procedures, at the same previous angles, only with a finer grit, and repeat that process until totally finished, am I correct?

Correct. You can see how a stone changes after each grit step in the polishing section further down in the article.

And I explained in the polishing section, there are prescribed angles as written in the diagram, but there is no prescribed grit. They are empirical. If you ask one person, he answers you should cut and polish with this and this grits. Then you ask another person, he might give you a different answer. However, there is some consensus what works on a particular stone. I am sure the members on this forum are willing to share the info. But in the end you have to try and see if a particular polishing agent (and a lap) works for you.

Quote:
What I am confused about is when the angles are changed, and when the grits are changed, and in what sequence, for example, you would first cut the pavilion of the stone from a preform that is mounted on the dop, and then, you would proceed to cut the girdle, the pavilion, and the culet of the stone, in the SAME rough grit, and THEN repeat the process by changing the disk to a finer one, and then reset at all the previous angles, replicating them exactly on the faceting device, and repeating this procedure until the gem is at the final polish, EXCEPT for the table, which is cut last, after going on the transfer device to a new dop to allow the table and crown to be finished?

This is what I meant:
-Put a coarse/medium-grit lap on the machine. Rough-cut/shape all the pavilion facets and girdle facets changing the angles.
-Change to the fine-grit lap. Pre-polish all the pavilion and girdle facets changing the angles
-Change to the polishing lap with an appropreate polishing agent. Polish all the pavilion and girdle facets changing the angles.
-Transfer the stone
-Change to the coarse/medium-grit lap. Cut/shape all the crown facets except for the table facet changing the angles
-Change to the fine-grit lap. Pre-polish all the crown facets except for the table changing the angles
-Change to the polishing lap with an appropreate polishing agent. Polish all the crown facets except for the table changing the angles.
-Engage the table block on the quill and set the dop in the table block
-Change to the coarse/medium-grit lap. Cut the table facet
-Change to the fine-grit lap. Pre-polish the table facet
-Change to the polishing lap with an appropreate polishing agent. Polish the table facet
-Remove the stone from the dop. Clean the stone and admire.

Quote:
"The pavilion and future girdle are shaped and polished. "

The picture posted on the left of this sentence is right after the step in the bold letters above. I thought I explained enough but maybe it is not enough. If you have questions, please ask. I will explain. :D

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Mitch

I am a slave to cutting a stone completely free of chips and very much enjoying it.


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