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 Post subject: New to cabbing and have a questions
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:14 pm 
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Hello everyone and Happy Thanksgiving.

I am very new to rock-hounding and lapidary, and have just joined the local club and starting cabbing lessons.

I am just as enthralled with it as I was expecting to be 45 years ago in my Earth Science class. I am so amazed at the beauty hiding in a seemingly mundane looking rock. (The catalyst for finally leaping into this adventure was a trip to the Herkimer diamond mines a few months ago, and busting open a rock to find a perfect little double terminated crystal loose in the cavity. It was absolutely unblemished and I was the first to ever see that beautiful creation. Quite exciting!)

While I am trying to avoid blowing a bunch of money on a hobby that I might get my fill of quickly and set aside, I am thinking I would be willing to spend a few hundred on a trim saw, as I have a fair amount of small rocks that I would like to get inside.

I would like one large enough to do some small rock/geode slicing (less that 3-4 inches diameter) and had been reading a lot about buying a tile saw and adding the good sintered diamond blade. But I have also read that they rotate much faster and that says to me "More dangerous". Here is the problem. I am quite intimidated by moving blades, and truth be told, I have had my share of mishaps with sharp things. My husband is understandably uneasy having been the 'first responder' on a few occasions. Don't get me wrong, I still have 10 fingers. But being as safe as possible is a high priority for me. If the faster rotation of the tile saw and bigger blade increases the risk significantly, I will just stay with the lower speed 4" actual lapidary trim saw and be happy. I have actually gotten comfortable with the saws in the club's shop, and instructors have demonstrated how hard it would be to get a serious cut on them. ( skinned knuckles and nicks don't really concern me) So, I will be asking them as well what size and speed the saws are that I have been using. But I was also hoping to get some thoughts from you good folks here. Would I be upping the risk to go with a larger faster tile saw? Any recommendations for minimal risk/best value?

Thanks,
Dale


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 Post subject: Re: New to cabbing and have a questions
PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:59 pm 
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Any thoughts from the experts on this?


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 Post subject: Re: New to cabbing and have a questions
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:21 am 
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I guess I would decide based on my intended use. The 4'' lapidary trim saws use thin blades for precise cutting of valuable rough, while the tile saw will have make thicker cuts but might save time on large rough. Don't stick your hand in either one. :)

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 Post subject: Re: New to cabbing and have a questions
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:55 pm 
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I have a small tile saw with a diamond blade. It hasits uses but its probably more dangerous to the stones than to me. Honestly it's not much good for precision and it removes a relatively wide chunk. But it was sure cheap!

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 Post subject: Re: New to cabbing and have a questions
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:53 pm 
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Scarodactyl wrote:
I have a small tile saw with a diamond blade. It hasits uses but its probably more dangerous to the stones than to me. Honestly it's not much good for precision and it removes a relatively wide chunk. But it was sure cheap!


In your opinion how well dose the tile saw work for very rough cutting (I'm assuming you swapped out the tile saw blade for a thinner lapidary blade)?

I ended up with some unreasonably large rough that I can't cut slice on my faceting machine and am looking for a trim saw. I considered a tile saw with a lapidary blade but I am worried about the very high speed those saws run at would be dangerous to the stones (not so much myself, I intend to "automate" the machine for cutting because I'm lazy). I'm trying to chop huge pieces of CZ for faceting (great faceting material btw, just didn't expect the entire order to come in as a single chunk).

Alternatively, I've seen Inland's Swap Top machine floating around online for a very good deal. I really do like the idea of a small lightweight plastic (no metal to worry about corroding) machine. The versatility of is a bonus i guess but the tradeoff would be it's life cycle (good for a hobbyist but definably not for production).

You guys have any takes on this unit?


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 Post subject: Re: New to cabbing and have a questions
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:37 pm 
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If you want to do cabbing "for realsies" you should invest in a real lapidary saw. There may be some tilesaws which would give excellent results but I would guess you'd end up with more trouble than you want. But I don't know that for sure from first-hand experience.

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 Post subject: Re: New to cabbing and have a questions- update
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:05 pm 
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Thanks for everyone's input. I had actually already purchased a cheap tile saw just a few days before all the responses started pouring in.

So here is my report:

Purchased the 7 inch Skil wet saw for $90 at HD.

Not scary at all, so that barrier was hurdled nicely. And it was very easy to set up and carry back and forth from the lanai. My cutting technique certainly needs work, but I knew that already.

But.....

1. Very wet proposition. Got drenched.
2. I may have already cooked the blade after just 30 minutes of experimenting with different rocks, and some agatized coral. Need to figure out the root cause...probably my fault.
3. Water reservoir is very small and must be refilled about every minute, or so, of use.
4. Reservoir got a large sludge build up that can't be very good for the blade or the operator.
5. Wearing a mask with glasses was also problematic as it made my glasses fog up if I breathed. I do like to breathe...

All in all, it was not a gratifying experience.

So, I am now trying to shake off the discouragement by brainstorming solutions to the various issues. First thing I will do is put it into a tub of some kind to contain its water-flinging enthusiasm, and maybe figure out a better shield over the top. I would also like to rig up a method for continuous water flow and drain instead of the current method of reusing that mud out of the reservoir.

I am a little hesitant to spend $30-40 for a new blade until I figure out why it fried so quickly. Pointless to fry another more costly one, hoping that it was the cheap blade and not my technique. I also want to work on the other issues to make it more user friendly before buying it any more costly pretties. It could end up being a lost cause.

I am not ready to give up quite yet, but I am a little discouraged.

If it doesn't work out, I will probably just use the local club shop for a while until I know if I want to get into Lapidary for "realsies" as Scarodactyl put it. Darn, I really wanted to play at this at home without spending an arm.

Dale


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 Post subject: Re: New to cabbing and have a questions
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:21 am 
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Cheap tile saws are not all alike. In glassworking it is common for people to say go to harbor freight and get a cheap tile saw.

But, the reality is that it really does depend on the saw, and how much vibration it has, etc...

The cheap tile saw I bought for tile from menards shatters glass. There is no way to cut glass on it without shattering, from chatter.

Also, if you do, buy a dressing stick and dress your blade.

But all tile saws are not equal. The harbor freight ones are supposed to work good for glass though. They have a blade cover, and trigger near the blade. That's the one people say works good. So, if it doesn't chatter too much for glass, it should work better for the rocks you'll be using I guess. (On a Major Budget)


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 Post subject: Re: New to cabbing and have a questions
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:36 pm 
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Dalew,
A couple things; Starting out your practicing with agate probably wasn't the best idea. It's about the hardest (Mohs scale) of the easily-obtainable cutting materials. I used to cut slabs for my wife using a 6" Loretone trim saw and 2" thick pieces took forever. Also, the sludge your making must not be dumped down your drains. The stuff dries to concrete. I recommend you check around for places selling pre-cut slabs. They used to be pretty cheap (well, in the 1990s anyway). Use your saw to do the bit of trimming and shaping needed. Finally, if you can afford it, buy a Pixie grinder/polisher by Diamond Pacific. Used ones are cheaper, but still expensive. However, my wife used one and loved it. Their quiet, very easy to use, don't splash water all around, and great for apartments.

Bob Nolan


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 Post subject: Re: New to cabbing and have a questions
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:49 am 
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Diamond saws (unless they are damaged or the notched variety typically do not cut flesh effectively. I have bumped the blade a few time and only ever drew blood on a damaged blade.

I have used a tile saw for house renovations and a Lapidary saw for cutting rocks. In my opinion use the tile saw for tiles. The lapidary saw I have runs a lot more smoothly, does not spray coolant everywhere and has better coolant circulation. It also has a small rock vice that makes it much easier to cut rocks without worrying about fingers. I typically use it as an automatic feed. I have installed a kill switch under the weights that power the feed to shut the saw off when I am finished.

I have also found that oily coolants seem to work best when cutting hard stones such as agates. Oil coolants also prevent the saw bade from rusting when they are left sitting in the coolant tray.

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 Post subject: Re: New to cabbing and have a questions
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:48 pm 
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Water is a poor choice for diamond saw blades. At the rock/blade interface of a spinning saw blade, the temperatures are high and ther water does not cool, it simply vaporizes. The heta can easily be high enough to allow the bonding metal to flow over the diamond. This is seen as glazing of the blade, requiring dressing immediately, or the blade stops cutting. Most sawyers use too much pressure with agate, worsening the situation. Water soluble oils are better, but not much. Proper oils will extend blade life, provide a smoother surface, create less chipping, and on and on. Almag is a great cutting oil, easily re-cycled. Sawing is best undertaken in a well-ventilated area, outside the living quarters, and breathing volatilized oils can be very hazardous. Wear a respirator when sawing. Good advice can be found here:

http://www.rockhounds.com/rockshop/saw_lube.html

Past results are not a guarantee of future performance and your mileage may vary.

Wayne


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 Post subject: Re: New to cabbing and have a questions
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:19 pm 
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I have 2 5" trim saws, 1 new at about $250, and one old at about $50...both work well and pretty much identical except that the old one is all metal and heavier, the newer an all plastic housing. I also have a 13" lapidary saw that I use to cut slabs...it makes life easier because it has an automatic, screw-drive vise and nice sealing lid so that I can start it and go do other things while it is cutting...draw back is they are expensive...about $1,500 new.


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 Post subject: Re: New to cabbing and have a questions
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:59 am 
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Quote:
Almag is a great cutting oil, easily re-cycled. Sawing is best undertaken in a well-ventilated area, outside the living quarters, and breathing volatilized oils can be very hazardous. Wear a respirator when sawing.


Make sure you read up about coolants before using one.

An old article , originally published in a magazine and later collated and bound into a book of 'shop helpers', that I read promoted used transformer oil as a good low cost coolant. Wow! What a fantastic idea cheap plentiful coolant - hundreds of people read the article and some probably used it.

Only flaw is that the stuff is extremely toxic.

Read the MSDS before using any coolant you intend to use. My saw has a tight fitting hood that stops coolant from splashing or vapour from getting into the air. The respirator is probably still a good idea. Also remember you are dealing with a flammable substance you should always have appropriate fire safety precautions in place.

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 Post subject: Re: New to cabbing and have a questions
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:29 am 
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dalew,

Having the same Skil saw as you do, and also a 5 inch trim saw, you are good to go with the Skil saw.

You want to do cabbing. Using a saw means removing the material outside of the shape of the cab, If this material is what is normally used, then you loose nothing using the standard blade that comes with the saw because the removed material is waste.

Also, with the much larger surface of the Skil saw, you can maneuver slabs that would be too large for a trim saw and have them fully supported.

Next, a tile saw is designed to handle tile, which can be quite hard, say 9 hardness. Quartz is 7 hardness and some jaspers, etc. are harder but definitely NOT too hard for a tile saw.

I have never seen a trim saw that does not spray forward -- the section of the blade not under the movable cover where you actually have the material touching the blade flings water forward. Trim saws usually have a vertical spray block sticking up at the front of the saw which (sometimes) actually works.

For the Skil saw (and other NON-OVERHEAD BLADE) tile saws, I just clamp a piece of tupperware to the surface to act as a spray block. It can be as big and tall as you want and CAn block the spray if you want it too.

In addition, trim saws tend to let you use only a portion of the blade, say 1-1.5 inches on a 4 inch Tiny Trim saw while a tile saw lets you run the material through, front to back. Remember here that it handles 12 inch tiles.

Check the water level occasional. There are two easily visible markings for water level and it's easy to add more water, though most all of it does drain back into the reservoir.

For valuable rough, where you want to cut and maximize the remaining material, you can get a much thinner blade and put that on the saw. Works for me.

Last but not least, the Skill saw costs $90 at HD, while a 6 inch trim saw starts at $500 and goes up.

One caveat here : For faceting rough, the throat opening on the Skil saw (and most any tile saw) is wider than on a trim saw. I run a piece of lexan or aluminum flashing through the blade, clamp it to the surface, and now you have a close to zero width kerf (also means more water on the top of the saw though.)

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