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 Post subject: Re: Economics of Faceting
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:52 am 
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Funny stuff Barry
I'm new to cutting . I'm cutting a stone in a day but ... I'm trying to make a good one every time and most likely a design I havnt done before. I expect to get faster and hopefully make some money . I also realise quartz isn't going to do that for me , I have interest in them but will I sell more than one a week at moment? No. Probably never. I'm trying to cut acurate stones and let the time come down ... In time.
When people say on here " it won't be a competition stone" and " nobody complains about my meets" what exactly are we talking about getting away with? As in what is commercially acceptable ?
I'm willing to ( and have ) make purchase of more expensive rough , but also understand I have a lot to learn . I see the faceting as the tip of the iceberg in this game , the rough and selling a stone is the bulbous area underneath that you don't see when you get into cutting stones . I had a thought in the back of my mind going into this , but was blinded by shiny fiddly machines I like so much .

Barney


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 Post subject: Re: Economics of Faceting
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:26 am 
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This thread would be a good candidate for a 'sticky' if possible, always at the top, so that it can be a permanent reference for those first enquiring about faceting.
Gearloose wrote:
In the course of this website, and in some threads on here, I have seen a repeating tragedy play out. Someone is in desperate straits, and decides they want to get into a skilled field making things for a luxury market.

There are lots of naive, unrealistic expectations of hard-won skills that tend not to be practised in public. The kindest response is to encourage the person to join a local club and learn a new skill nearly for free. One of our club's current workshop managers started by being retrenched by her employer, learned by watching and asking questions, saved up for lapidary course fees, and now is supervising and teaching others.

Barney - to answer your question. I don't think I have ever seen a jeweller take a loupe to a coloured stone to inspect the meets or polish. If the stone is not windowed, the facets not obviously scratched, and the meets OK without magnification it seems to be just fine for most jewellers - at least, in Cape Town. Elsewhere they may be more fussy. I cut to a higher standard; but I can't help myself.


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 Post subject: Re: Economics of Faceting
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:54 am 
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Barney, Xeno has hit it on the head.
Well proportioned, good colour, standard cuts that a goldsmith can easily work with, are winners.
As for how "much is too much", if you are happy with a finished gem, and can display it with pride, you are a winner!
Barry


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 Post subject: Re: Economics of Faceting
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:07 am 
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Ahhhh, I love reading stories about stupid people :)


Heard the one about the asshole who works in a cold shop and hasn't raised his prices since 2007, and dreams of a 1:2.7 markup.? :smt105

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 Post subject: Re: Economics of Faceting
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:50 am 
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Ahhhh, I love reading stories about stupid people


This is true in one sense , as in he could be stupid in offering that price to someone obviously very handy with digging holes / graves . Gets hot out there , people forget all sorts of things .
On the other hand , you don't get a mouth full of gold offering double the price .
Can I swing a detector over the meeting place?


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 Post subject: Re: Economics of Faceting
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:55 am 
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Kingsolomon wrote:
Funny stuff Barry
I'm new to cutting . I'm cutting a stone in a day but ... I'm trying to make a good one every time and most likely a design I havnt done before. I expect to get faster and hopefully make some money . I also realise quartz isn't going to do that for me , I have interest in them but will I sell more than one a week at moment? No. Probably never. I'm trying to cut acurate stones and let the time come down ... In time.
When people say on here " it won't be a competition stone" and " nobody complains about my meets" what exactly are we talking about getting away with? As in what is commercially acceptable ?
I'm willing to ( and have ) make purchase of more expensive rough , but also understand I have a lot to learn . I see the faceting as the tip of the iceberg in this game , the rough and selling a stone is the bulbous area underneath that you don't see when you get into cutting stones . I had a thought in the back of my mind going into this , but was blinded by shiny fiddly machines I like so much .

Barney


As a business, the actual faceting part, is the easiest part. The rest of it (buying the rough, selling the stone....) are much harder.

You can make some money cutting quartz, but you need to cut larger stones, and the color has to be very good, only buy the very best color. The problem with cutting larger stones, as I'm sure you have found out is they take longer to cut. But if you cut maybe a 10 ct finished Amethyst, and can get $40 per ct. that's a $400 stone. The rough cost you what, $50 to $100. Maybe it takes you 6 hours to cut it, but that's $50 per hr. for cutting. You also had some time to find the rough, some selling time, bookkeeping, maybe photography etc. so that $50 hr will be less once you factor everything in. But you had some fun right!

A trip out to the gem shows in Tucson is a lot of time, and expense and it's easy to forget about that when you are thinking you made some profit of a stone.

One thing that always seems to sell, and is cheap to cut is lab created sapphire and ruby. The rough is less than quartz, and sells for more than quartz. It is also to me, easier to polish. You can make some money cutting this. Here you can cut 2 and 3 ct pieces that are better suited size wise for most jewelry use, the smaller sizes cut faster too.

As far as your question about what you can get away with... you are selling quality cutting compared to typical "native" commercial cutting. So your cutting needs to be very good, but not competition perfect.

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 Post subject: Re: Economics of Faceting
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:55 pm 
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Precision Gem wrote:
One thing that always seems to sell, and is cheap to cut is lab created sapphire and ruby. The rough is less than quartz, and sells for more than quartz. It is also to me, easier to polish. You can make some money cutting this. Here you can cut 2 and 3 ct pieces that are better suited size wise for most jewelry use, the smaller sizes cut faster too.


Please pardon my ignorance.

Precision, something about that doesn't make sense to me. From my understanding, China pumps out synthetic corundum by the tones and you can't even buy batches of less than 5kg from them. They are incredibly inexpensive, 180$ usd for 1kg, think 25,000 carrets for under 1000$ USD even after shipping, taxes, and duties. I don't understand how you could possibly make money (by North American standards) cutting such inexpensive material.

Cutting isn't the problem, supply isn't either, the question is who's buying?


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 Post subject: Re: Economics of Faceting
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:17 pm 
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Faken, I don't know where you got your figures from, but you are saying you can buy a 25 ct cut lab created ruby for $1 ? I don't believe that.

What I do know, is every year I will cut a few lab created rubies or sapphires, and sell them. I normally get around $60 per ct for them, and as soon as I post one, a few other people email me asking for one just like the one that just sold.

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 Post subject: Re: Economics of Faceting
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:11 pm 
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I have never cut a Hydro emerald that has sat around gathering dust, either, FWIW, Your mileage may vary, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Economics of Faceting
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:17 pm 
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I firmly agree with Precision, putting a stone on the lap is the easiest part of the business to learn. Far more critical to success is cultivating sources for rough and finding outlets for sales of your stones. The margins can be thin on high end rough since rough sellers have the option if sending rough to China for very cheap cutting. Also mistakes can be costly and it can take a long time to recover your investment on a parcel of rough.
However I do think better times are ahead as the Mom and Pop Jewelers seem to be buying again. The problem at the moment seems to be scarcity of rough. Usually if buying picks up the miners start digging again and rough becomes more plentiful.
For right now and the near future if you have good rough stashed away, you should do well this year, I think.


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 Post subject: Re: Economics of Faceting
PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:47 am 
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Thanks for the input ...
I did state that I'm aware that the faceting thing is the tip of the iceberg .
Precision gem , do you only charge per carat for a finnished stone ? What if you have , say a nice cut quartz that stands out from the rest . And is say 4-5 carat , but done in a more complicated design .is it kosher to ask $300? So I guess it's asking 50% more . I understand the asking price is what someone is willing to pay . But I guess my question is it easier just to have a basic carat/ sale price , or can you ask ( like a basic rate for a cut stone ) even if its quartz at four carat, or does this put potential buyers off? Not that it matters to me right now , but would rather be cutting the right material / size to be potential sales .
I'd rather be cutting natural stones , but if synthetic sells I'm open to that. I have loupe clean tourmaline that will cut stones from 1-4 carat . Wondering if I'm better off holding onto it a bit longer or cutting it to try get some more .
Wondering as someone said its harder to make money on the higher end stuff . Guess I better get my web page running sooner than I thought . Is this the way you guys sell most of your stones?
Thnax again

Barney


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 Post subject: Re: Economics of Faceting
PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:55 am 
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Wondering as someone said its harder to make money on the higher end stuff .


Only because it is harder to find the right customer for it.
Around here the probability of a sale literally depends on Zip/Post Code.

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 Post subject: Re: Economics of Faceting
PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:57 am 
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Barney, you ask questions that I think most answers to are "it depends".

Let's look at some stones you recently cut. These two:

Image

The cutting looks fantastic. The designs are very interesting, and fun to cut. I used to really like doing this type of work. BUT it doesn't sell well. Most retail customers have very little imagination and are looking to make copies of what they commonly see, which is a copy of the Tiffany ring with a diamond halo around it.

Something like this:

Image

So really what you did, is produced something that is more unique that stands out from the rest, but is less sought after by the general public. Add to that it's smokey quartz, and you have something that maybe you end up giving away to your mother in law. Let her deal with it.

I cut these these this past year, the material is lab created spinel 7.53 total ct weight. They flew off the shelf and several people asked if I would cut them a pair. Sold for $45/ct.

Image

They may have ended up in some CZ halo earnings that look like the Tiffany ring.

As far as making money on the higher end stuff, well you certainly have more room to make money on a $5000 stone than on a $50 one. But it's also easier to loose money on high end rough. Over the years I have bought many pieces of rough for hundreds of dollars, only to cut them and end up selling them for less than I paid for the rough.

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 Post subject: Re: Economics of Faceting
PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:10 am 
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There is a generational issue that impacts the sales prices of synthetics, that people have not covered.

(Showing picture clipped from ad)
"I Want something like this. Pink."

"Spinel, tourmaline..?"

"Pink. Just pink."

They don't care. They don't want to hear it.

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 Post subject: Re: Economics of Faceting
PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 2:02 pm 
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Precision Gem wrote:
. Over the years I have bought many pieces of rough for hundreds of dollars, only to cut them and end up selling them for less than I paid for the rough.


Isn't that the truth.. in most cases the rough prices are upside down!

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