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 Post subject: Lap Cleaning after cutting? + Issues arising (again)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:27 pm 
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I've got some more issues with gouging again and I'm going to work very hard this time to get to the bottom of it. Do people have a regimen they use for cleaning laps after they are done with them using WD-40 or the like?

There is of course the possibility that my current routine (batt w/ 600 water diastik, sintered 1200, batt 3000, Matrix 60k) is causing the issues because I'm not going deep enough with each lap. I recently cut a mali garnet and on 4 facets that were all the same depth/place/size, one had horrendous gouging issues, two had a a few gouging issues, and one had no problems whatsoever. All facets were cut with 600 water based diastik to the same level, finished with 1200 to the same level, and so on. All other facets on the same stone had no issues, these facets were far and above the largest ones. Gouging issues seem to be arising in the pre-polish stage (3000 batt), not the polishing stage, that's just when they become extremely visible.

I tried the Zinc+ band on my Dia Z+ again for the first time in a long while after a thorough clean, new layer of 8k diastik/snake oil and immediately had the same issues I had before. I had been mis-identifying it as scratches when in reality they are gouges. Mini crevasses with trails that look like chunks of the rough rolling out and damaging the facet more. There is a noticeable (tick, tick, tick) sound as the lap spins around which I can only imagine is the stone hitting something?

Before I was a new faceter and very frustrated, now that I (still a new faceter) have 13-ish stones under my belt I'm CURIOUS haha. I know the rewarding feeling that awaits me when I get to the bottom of this, but I'll need some help!

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 Post subject: Re: Lap Cleaning after cutting? + Issues arising (again)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:07 pm 
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I suggest that you try a finer grit in place of 3000 mesh for prepolishing: 8000 mesh (2-4 micron) water base
3000 mesh (4-8 micron) can cause scratching on many colored stones.
You did not mention the lap speed that you used.

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 Post subject: Re: Lap Cleaning after cutting? + Issues arising (again)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:16 pm 
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thomas.adamas wrote:
I suggest that you try a finer grit in place of 3000 mesh for prepolishing: 8000 mesh (2-4 micron) water base
3000 mesh (4-8 micron) can cause scratching on many colored stones.
You did not mention the lap speed that you used.


Hmm interesting. Previously I had been using 8k (oil base, will order some of the newer pandamonium sticks) on my Zinc+ band and it still caused these gouging issues.

Machine is a newer Ultra-tec V5, I run my sintered lap and 600 Batt at 6ish and all my polishing/pre-polishing ones at around 4ish

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 Post subject: Re: Lap Cleaning after cutting? + Issues arising (again)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:38 pm 
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There is a noticeable (tick, tick, tick) sound as the lap spins around

Is this ticking always occurring in the same place?

Try putting your fingertip on the lap to see if you can feel a stray particle in that area. If so, do a really close inspection of your lap for embedded crystal chips or whatever. It could even be a small raised bit of metal from your lap if you've accidentally gouged it (my copper lap has several of these, but being a roughing lap doesn't really cause any issues).

I have used steel wool with the lap spinning in reverse successfully to pull out errant rock chips. This might be worth a shot.

One last thing - some stones are reactive with water. I have had several stones produce orange peel and other nasties on certain facets when prepolishing with water (normally on BATT using a 14k PCD or 3k water prep Diastik). Drying and switching to Snake Oil stopped it.

Good luck

-Allan

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 Post subject: Re: Lap Cleaning after cutting? + Issues arising (again)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:42 pm 
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PandaP wrote:
Machine is a newer Ultra-tec V5, I run my sintered lap and 600 Batt at 6ish and all my polishing/pre-polishing ones at around 4ish


I have no idea what the equivalent number of rpms 4 designates on a UT base.

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 Post subject: Re: Lap Cleaning after cutting? + Issues arising (again)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:01 pm 
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thomas.adamas wrote:
PandaP wrote:
Machine is a newer Ultra-tec V5, I run my sintered lap and 600 Batt at 6ish and all my polishing/pre-polishing ones at around 4ish


I have no idea what the equivalent number of rpms 4 designates on a UT base.


Neither do I :( you would think these machines would have rpm numbers on them instead of arbitrary ones.

gembug wrote:
Quote:
There is a noticeable (tick, tick, tick) sound as the lap spins around

Is this ticking always occurring in the same place?

Try putting your fingertip on the lap to see if you can feel a stray particle in that area. If so, do a really close inspection of your lap for embedded crystal chips or whatever. It could even be a small raised bit of metal from your lap if you've accidentally gouged it (my copper lap has several of these, but being a roughing lap doesn't really cause any issues).

I have used steel wool with the lap spinning in reverse successfully to pull out errant rock chips. This might be worth a shot.

One last thing - some stones are reactive with water. I have had several stones produce orange peel and other nasties on certain facets when prepolishing with water (normally on BATT using a 14k PCD or 3k water prep Diastik). Drying and switching to Snake Oil stopped it.

Good luck

-Allan


Thanks Allan, I'll try with the finger and also the steel wool to see what I can do. At Tucson this year I nabbed a rather large synthetic sapphire boule, and also instead to use it on the lap to hopefully "break it in" as I have yet to do that with any laps.

P.S. I still have some of those garnets you graciously gave me at the BC Gem Show last year! They have been instrumental in my learning, thanks again!

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 Post subject: Re: Lap Cleaning after cutting? + Issues arising (again)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:08 pm 
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When I first started I also had a lot of trouble with this.

Several thoughts:

1) to much polish. I use to keep a slurrey of polish material going... I once used a whole stick of diamond on 2 stones...... way way way to much. All it was doing was balling up and causing problems

2) Try the oil. I have a few synthetics that just do not like water, but do well with oil

3) to wet. Again causes problems all over the place. I have switched to the brother zachery water fluid and a humidifier for prepolish and polish. NOT DRIP AT ALL. This seems to have much less problem with goucing

4) Some material is just a pain. for whatever reason it has weak spots that break loose, and then the chunk comes around and gouges, or embeds in the lap. I have some synthetic material that my wife loves the color of but I hate to work. It is just a pain. I use it for test cuts on new designs where I just want to get falimure with the cut. I stop after the prepolish and never polish it. Eventually the stones end up in the trash. My daughter is looking to get a fish tank, so they might end up there.

Try getting some other material (cz is cheap) or get some other garnet and see how it works out.

If you send me a PM, I might be able to dig through my bag of rough and get a few stray pieces of something (I have some that got jumbled and am not sure what it is. ) If nothing else it would give you something else to try.

Do not give up, it will get better.


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 Post subject: Re: Lap Cleaning after cutting? + Issues arising (again)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:36 pm 
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wilsonintexas wrote:
When I first started I also had a lot of trouble with this.

Several thoughts:

1) to much polish. I use to keep a slurrey of polish material going... I once used a whole stick of diamond on 2 stones...... way way way to much. All it was doing was balling up and causing problems

2) Try the oil. I have a few synthetics that just do not like water, but do well with oil

3) to wet. Again causes problems all over the place. I have switched to the brother zachery water fluid and a humidifier for prepolish and polish. NOT DRIP AT ALL. This seems to have much less problem with goucing

4) Some material is just a pain. for whatever reason it has weak spots that break loose, and then the chunk comes around and gouges, or embeds in the lap. I have some synthetic material that my wife loves the color of but I hate to work. It is just a pain. I use it for test cuts on new designs where I just want to get falimure with the cut. I stop after the prepolish and never polish it. Eventually the stones end up in the trash. My daughter is looking to get a fish tank, so they might end up there.

Try getting some other material (cz is cheap) or get some other garnet and see how it works out.

If you send me a PM, I might be able to dig through my bag of rough and get a few stray pieces of something (I have some that got jumbled and am not sure what it is. ) If nothing else it would give you something else to try.

Do not give up, it will get better.


1) I'm using much less polish than when I started but will try using even less!

2) Yeah I've completely switched to oil now but unfortunately it still seems to happen.

3) when I have newer compounds to try this with I will!

4) I realize this and am trying to be aware of it. I think I need to cut more to realize when it's the stone and when it's me.

I've got some fairly included garnets I can practice with that I should really go back to instead of using my more expensive stuff, but thank you for the offer!

I have no intention to give up now, I'm far too deep into the jewellery industry as a whole and I know this is all a part of the learning process!

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 Post subject: Re: Lap Cleaning after cutting? + Issues arising (again)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:48 pm 
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Quote:
I still have some of those garnets you graciously gave me at the BC Gem Show last year! They have been instrumental in my learning, thanks again!

I forgot about that! Glad you're getting some use out of them. PM me if you'd like a few more. I won't be going to the BC Gem show this year though.

BTW I'd recommend cutting good-quality stones for learning. Cutting included garnets may be part of the problem - depending on the level and types of inclusions, they may be breaking off and causing some of the undercutting/pitting/gouging you're seeing. And while you may feel guilty about learning on what you consider good rough, garnets aren't too expensive (yet!) and you'll end up with a nice finished stone too.

You can also try something forgiving - synthetics like YAG, spinel and sapphire all are relatively easy to cut (aside from orange peel on some sapphire) and yield very nice finished gems. They typically are easier to cut than CZ as CZ can vary depending on the manufacturer. The other bonus is that these synthetics (maybe not YAG) are harder than the garnets and give you more time to respond.

-Allan

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 Post subject: Re: Lap Cleaning after cutting? + Issues arising (again)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:29 pm 
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gembug wrote:
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I still have some of those garnets you graciously gave me at the BC Gem Show last year! They have been instrumental in my learning, thanks again!

I forgot about that! Glad you're getting some use out of them. PM me if you'd like a few more. I won't be going to the BC Gem show this year though.

BTW I'd recommend cutting good-quality stones for learning. Cutting included garnets may be part of the problem - depending on the level and types of inclusions, they may be breaking off and causing some of the undercutting/pitting/gouging you're seeing. And while you may feel guilty about learning on what you consider good rough, garnets aren't too expensive (yet!) and you'll end up with a nice finished stone too.

You can also try something forgiving - synthetics like YAG, spinel and sapphire all are relatively easy to cut (aside from orange peel on some sapphire) and yield very nice finished gems. They typically are easier to cut than CZ as CZ can vary depending on the manufacturer. The other bonus is that these synthetics (maybe not YAG) are harder than the garnets and give you more time to respond.

-Allan


I still have lots, not to worry! Thanks for the offer though, I also will not be going to the gem show this year.

Unfortunately my issues have been on nice rough, not the included ones :( I do have some huge chunks of YAG, and my boule of synthetic sapphire that I need to chop down. I've got a completely eye clean heliodor up next, so I'm going to test out all this info on that one, re-assess, and then move forward.

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 Post subject: Re: Lap Cleaning after cutting? + Issues arising (again)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:44 pm 
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PandaP wrote:
I've got some more issues with gouging again and I'm going to work very hard this time to get to the bottom of it. Do people have a regimen they use for cleaning laps after they are done with them using WD-40 or the like?

There is of course the possibility that my current routine (batt w/ 600 water diastik, sintered 1200, batt 3000, Matrix 60k) is causing the issues because I'm not going deep enough with each lap. I recently cut a mali garnet and on 4 facets that were all the same depth/place/size, one had horrendous gouging issues, two had a a few gouging issues, and one had no problems whatsoever. All facets were cut with 600 water based diastik to the same level, finished with 1200 to the same level, and so on. All other facets on the same stone had no issues, these facets were far and above the largest ones. Gouging issues seem to be arising in the pre-polish stage (3000 batt), not the polishing stage, that's just when they become extremely visible.

I tried the Zinc+ band on my Dia Z+ again for the first time in a long while after a thorough clean, new layer of 8k diastik/snake oil and immediately had the same issues I had before. I had been mis-identifying it as scratches when in reality they are gouges. Mini crevasses with trails that look like chunks of the rough rolling out and damaging the facet more. There is a noticeable (tick, tick, tick) sound as the lap spins around which I can only imagine is the stone hitting something?

Before I was a new faceter and very frustrated, now that I (still a new faceter) have 13-ish stones under my belt I'm CURIOUS haha. I know the rewarding feeling that awaits me when I get to the bottom of this, but I'll need some help!


Your using loose 600 mesh diamond, possibly a stray has found its way to your other laps.

I use dedicated (per mesh) LAVA (pumice) bars to scrub my laps. Place a flat piece of 1/2' thick plastic cutting board (or something similar) in the sink with a small amount of water running place the lap down on the flat surface and in small circular motions scrub the lap with long narrow edge of the bar trying to keep the scrubbing to an even amount across the surface of the lap. I do this only when scratching appears and a contaminte may be the cause on a facet and wiping the lap with WD40 or alcohol doesn't help.

You can dedicate a flat dop 8-12mm by 5 minute epoxy to a fairly large piece of syn. corundum say 3/4" by 3/4" square or rectangular to use for charging and finding the contaminate in a lap.
Take the newly dopped piece of synthetic mount in the quill, set at 45 degrees and cut 4 facets 96, 48, 24, 72 with fairly good size facets, with a 260 or 360 lap. Mount the 600 lap and set the mast so the quill will be placed running at around the 5 o'clock position or 7 on a left machine. Inspect the facet by using a 10x loupe. Do not sweep the facet just place it down in one area near the center then inspect the surface then move out to the next section and on wards to the outer edge. Do each lap in your sequence until you find the contaminate. Just put this new dopped synthetic corundum tool away until needed again for charging a new Batt lap or finding that little gouge digger.
Greg

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 Post subject: Re: Lap Cleaning after cutting? + Issues arising (again)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:59 pm 
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Ive used steel wool on laps in the past to clean as mentioned earlier.
I like using a rubber eraser on my batt lap when it starts scratching, gets rid of errant diamond and any loose particles on the lap, may work on your laps.


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 Post subject: Re: Lap Cleaning after cutting? + Issues arising (again)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:55 pm 
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Sounds to me like the 600 diastik has contaminated your 3000 BATT and Zinc +. Whenever you use loose diamond of any grit size larger than final polish you have to be extremely careful. You have to wash your hands and fingernails really well and also clean down the machine (quill, index wheel and lever, all controls) and general work area to assure that all stray diamond powder is gone before moving to a smaller grit.

Flip the BATT over and try 3000 on the other side. When you have some time send the lap back to Gearloose for resurfacing.

If you are hearing a sound when prepolishing in a certain area then that is proof of some kind of contamination. When the grit is smaller you won't hear it, you just see it when you inspect the facet.


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 Post subject: Re: Lap Cleaning after cutting? + Issues arising (again)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:09 pm 
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Steven Weintraub Jr wrote:
Sounds to me like the 600 diastik has contaminated your 3000 BATT and Zinc +. Whenever you use loose diamond of any grit size larger than final polish you have to be extremely careful. You have to wash your hands and fingernails really well and also clean down the machine (quill, index wheel and lever, all controls) and general work area to assure that all stray diamond powder is gone before moving to a smaller grit.

Flip the BATT over and try 3000 on the other side. When you have some time send the lap back to Gearloose for resurfacing.

If you are hearing a sound when prepolishing in a certain area then that is proof of some kind of contamination. When the grit is smaller you won't hear it, you just see it when you inspect the facet.


Yeah...that's probably it. I should get a nice 600 sintered and get my laps refinished and clean everything and then go from there. It doesn't help that I was using loose 325 grit before that as well so I suppose I could have contaminated it with that.

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 Post subject: Re: Lap Cleaning after cutting? + Issues arising (again)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:30 pm 
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It will go away and you won't have to deal with it again now that you know about contamination. The most important part to clean when switching laps I forgot to mention... The stone!!!

The dual banded laps work without people contaminating them all the time, and all they do is wipe the stone off real well before polishing on the outer ring.


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