January 24 Through February 4—TUCSON, ARIZONA: Annual show
Welcome to the GemologyOnline.com Forum
A non-profit Forum for the exchange of gemological ideas
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 2:48 pm

All times are UTC - 4 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: A re-test of CA from Paleo Bond
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:59 pm 
Offline
Gold Member

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:00 am
Posts: 1322
Location: Wylie Texas but in Alaska for a while
A few years ago I reported on super glue I tried called Paleo Bond.

I was in Florida at the time, faceting outside with a drip feed for cutting. The CA did not hold up well.

I recently got around to emailing the Paleo Bond people with the results. They were a little surprised, but said that since then they had developed a new stronger adhesive, that does well holding different materials together.

It is called PB100x. They send me a sample to test. Which I lost.

I can say that it does a good job if gluing a deeply cut finger together…….
It was late, I did not want to go to the ER, and it was not that bad.
When I was cleaning up, I must have thrown the glue away with the paper towels used to stop the bleeding…....) :evil:

ANHYHOW I felt bad, and ordered a tube of replacement glue. (Seemed only fair). I also asked for their recommendation on any application tips.

They recommended thinner glue as a “Primer” it is very thin and is designed to penetrate cracks. It is called PB02.

I talked about the problem with the Pavilion after transfer, and they sent some of their fibrous glass which is designed to fill gaps and very thing glue that penetrated the powder. (PB-10A)


I asked about the relative strengths of the glues this was their reply:

"PSI is determined by what is adhered to so there is a range.
The PB002 has an average PSI of 2500.
The PB100X has an average PSI of 4000"

So the B100x is about 1.6 times stronger than the previous glues that I tested.

We talked about filling in the gap around the stone after a transfer They recommended a glue called PB10A which is designed for use with the filler.

I THINK that it is a lower strength CA glue that is designed to fill cracks, but one that can later be removed. (which is important to Museums)

I am double checking the strength and will update this when I know it.

To start the test
I took a piece of synthetic Spinel and flattened it on a 180 grit (to simulate a diamond saw cut). I also cleaned a brass dop with some 1000 grip wet dry paper, so it was clean.

Both the stone and the dop were cleaned in Acetone and then Alcohol. They dried for a week while in a Tupper ware container while I waited for the new batch of glue.

I set up the sample in some putty on the transfer jig and pressed it in, so that I knew that the rough and the dop were in good contact.

I could also then raise the dop, apply the glue, and lower it.
The CA glues came with a micro feed tube onto the bottle, and it would flow via capillary action but I wanted a small drop so I pressed the bottle just a little.


I then pressed the dop down, and applied the PB100x around the edge and was ab;e to let the micro tube work using capillary action.


Their Powder came in a nice bottle and it was easy to flow a little bit of the powder around the dop. I then put the micro tube tip to the powder and capillary action pull it in pretty well. I noticed on e section that the glye flowed over the powder and did not fully saturate it.

On the other side of the stone, I put on a little excess PB100x and then used the tube that the powder came in to feed it into the CA glue. This seemed to work well and I did not see any areas where the powder was not fully saturated



I asked about cure time for full strength. This was their reply:

"Set time on both products is 30 seconds or less.
Full cure, based on cyanoacrylate chemistry, is 24 hours.
You can wait a few minutes and then continue to work after applying the product.
With the PB100X, you can hit with the activator, wait a few minutes, and then go back to work."


They said that with thin glues (like PB02) if there was a lot of excess glue, the activator will cause it to get very hot and loose strength.

I then took a second piece of rough and glued it up using a fairly new tube of Gorilla Brand Tough Stuff CA Glue. I went ahead and used the powder again to be fair to both glues.
I let both glues cure overnight.

In the morning I put each dop into a chuck and did a quick twist test. I was not able to twist either stone free even, even with a good hard twist.

I then put both dops on top of my misting humidifier and placed the top on. I let it run from 10:00 AM until I got back from a trip into town at 5:30 PM. (about 7 1.5 hours).

I did another quick twist test and neither piece failed.

It will be a few days before I am free to do some actual cutting, but this is promising.

I will update this after I do some cutting on the rough.
I will also see if I have any of a mystery stone that I got with my machine that has defied all attempts to mount it. I will see if the PB02 can do the trick.


When I get back to actual faceting, I will try the PB100x on the transfer using 2 or 3 methods:

1) I will use the cold was mold method and the PB100x to glue it into a wax mold
2) I will try the powder straight
3) I will try mixing baking soda into the powder to see if that makes freeing the stone easier.

I know that this is a trick several people use.

I will try soaking the final stone in acetone to break it free. I know that heat will work, but I want to see how the acetone works on heat sensitive stones.

I see several advantages with this glue:

1) I know that the Paleo Bond people manufacture their glue and sell it directly. This will guarantee that the glue will be fresh. They say that all CA glue has a shelf life. They recommend 1 year for their glues. They also said that that could be extended by keeping it in the refrigerator. (As well as keeping the tops sealed when not in use). I know for a fact that some of the CA I have bought was on the shelf a long time. More than one tube was actually cured in the tube when I got it out of the cardboard package.
2) I like the micro tips. They should help keep the bottles clean, and easier to put the tops back on and get off. I think that you could probably use them on other types of glue as well.


I also asked about yellowing, thinking about other used when I glue up some intarsia projects. They said that they do not know about direct sunlight, but that their glues have been used for over 25 years to mount specimens in many museums and none have ever reported a yellowing problem.


I did talk about my heavy handed cutting and said that I actually put a thermos couple on a dop and that I was thermos cycling the stone up to 140 degrees. Their initial response was that that should not be a problem, that it took something over 200 to weaken it. I will have to get the exact temp from them later.

My daughter is getting ready for a second Spinal Stimulator trial, and we may be headed back to Texas sometime in October. There will some time to prep the house for the winter. I am not sure how much testing I can get done before we head south.

I think that the best option may be to do some quick faceting, to test out some new designs I wanted to look at, and not worry a lot about meets or polish. I have a better chance of actually testing the glue including transfers. I will at least get a few designs in front f my daughter to pick from. I have my first piece of real rough (an actual sapphire) that I hope to cut to replace one in a ring that she is not happy with.



I have gone over this w=twice to try and clean it up, but end up making it worse.... sorry about that.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A re-test of CA from Paleo Bond
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:51 pm 
Offline
Moderator: Lapidary Diamonds
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:32 pm
Posts: 1747
Location: Florida, United States
Interesting test.
I have been working on a less volatile and low toxicity liquid to disintegrate both cured cyanoacrylate and epoxy.

_________________
http://adamasfacet.com


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A re-test of CA from Paleo Bond
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:57 pm 
Offline
Platinum Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 5:10 pm
Posts: 2117
Location: Maryland
By the length of this post, it all seems pretty complicated.

I have been using wax for the past 15 years, simple, quick and dependable.

_________________
Precison Gem
www.precisiongem.com


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A re-test of CA from Paleo Bond
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:48 pm 
Offline
Gold Member

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:00 am
Posts: 1322
Location: Wylie Texas but in Alaska for a while
Precision Gem wrote:
By the length of this post, it all seems pretty complicated.

I have been using wax for the past 15 years, simple, quick and dependable.



The length is just me rambling.....


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A re-test of CA from Paleo Bond
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:50 pm 
Offline
Gold Member

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:00 am
Posts: 1322
Location: Wylie Texas but in Alaska for a while
thomas.adamas wrote:
Interesting test.
I have been working on a less volatile and low toxicity liquid to disintegrate both cured cyanoacrylate and epoxy.


Sounds interesting.

Paleobond had one that I had used before, but they ran into a problem with a production batch. When they have it worked out I will test it. It is a water based solvent.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A re-test of CA from Paleo Bond
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:45 pm 
Offline
Moderator: Lapidary Diamonds
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:32 pm
Posts: 1747
Location: Florida, United States
wilsonintexas wrote:
thomas.adamas wrote:
Interesting test.
I have been working on a less volatile and low toxicity liquid to disintegrate both cured cyanoacrylate and epoxy.

Sounds interesting.
Paleobond had one that I had used before, but they ran into a problem with a production batch. When they have it worked out I will test it. It is a water based solvent.


Water-based? I bet it's a surfactant. Since CA is cross-linked, you don't truly dissolve the molecules, but rather penetrate and tear up the polymer structure. The surfactant would infiltrate the bondline between the stone and the glue and cause it to fail.

_________________
http://adamasfacet.com


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A re-test of CA from Paleo Bond
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:52 am 
Offline
Platinum Member

Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:40 pm
Posts: 2667
Location: South Dakota
Fantastic on that post! taking the time to investigate things, put them through the motions and then giving us the results of what you found
out

_________________
MrAmethystguy ~ Some jokes just fluorite over my head!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A re-test of CA from Paleo Bond
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:05 am 
Offline
Gold Member

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:00 am
Posts: 1322
Location: Wylie Texas but in Alaska for a while
Jason Barrett wrote:
Fantastic on that post! taking the time to investigate things, put them through the motions and then giving us the results of what you found
out



Thank you.

I have not had a chance to cut the stone yet.

Things went haywire with my daughters insurance......


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A re-test of CA from Paleo Bond
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:02 am 
Offline
Gold Member

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:00 am
Posts: 1322
Location: Wylie Texas but in Alaska for a while
I was able to start the pavilion using the Paleo Bond CA glue. It was the first time in a few months that I actually faceted something. I cut and polished the first 4 facets, and then I cut the rest of the pavilion with a 600 sintered. The ca held up well and the stone felt very solid during the cut.
There is a lot going on with my daughter and I am not sure when I will get another change to get back to the stone.
It was nice to get back to faceting even if it was only for half an hour.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A re-test of CA from Paleo Bond
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:43 am 
Offline
Gold Member

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:00 am
Posts: 1322
Location: Wylie Texas but in Alaska for a while
I have now basically cut and polished the pavilion of an Oval twice (on the same dop)

The Paleo Bond is holding up well. The stone still feels solid.

I still have to finish the girdle.

I will update this again after I have done a transfer.

I will continue to use this on few other stones.


But I think that it will become my default CA glue.

I did look for the troubling mystery stone, which defied all previous attempts to mount it on a dop. (Wax, Gorilla /tough CA, and several 2 part epoxies). When I get back to Dallas I try the Paleo Bond and see if it can handle the problem.

I will try to do more tests.

I plan to test a transfer using the modified wax and ca glue method.

But I am not sure when I will have time for that.

There is a lot going on here, and I will have to see how it goes.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A re-test of CA from Paleo Bond
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:33 pm 
Offline
Gold Member

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:00 am
Posts: 1322
Location: Wylie Texas but in Alaska for a while
I am in the middle of my first transfer with PaloeBond PB100X and PaleoFill Powder.

I cleaned the stone with alcohol. The V dop had been beaten a little and ther ewas some old adhesive in the V. I took a small triangular file and cleaned gthe V out until I had bright metal.

I had the stone in the top holder in my transfer jig, and I turned the holder "upside down" and added a drop of the PB100x to the tip of the stone.

The PB100x was thick enough that it did not run down the stone. I then turned the transfer jig "upright" and lowered the stone toward the V dop.

When the PB100X touched the sides of the V it wicked out and made good contact.

I did NOT press it all of the way down but left a small gap. I did not want to risk chipping an edge of the pavilion.

I then turned the holder on its side, so I was looking down the "V" and poured a little of the PaleoFill Powder on the joint. The powder filled the gap, and wetted out completely.

I then did the other side of the V.

There was still a little CA around the stone, so I use the powder and built up around the rest of the dop, but left it clear of the girdle.

Some of the powder did not fully wet out.

I could have added some more PB100X or some PB10 which is designed to work with the powder. If this were a large stone, I would have done that to build up a support structure. But this stone fit the V dop pretty well, so there was not much unsupported stone.

Since the powder was getting close to the girdle I just blew the excess off.

I have another project to work on, so I am going to let the stone cure for a while. I could spray it with an accelerator and work with it immediately, but I need to cut some wood while the rain has let up.

If I am not to tired, I will try and get back to the stone this evening. If I am tired from working outside, I will have to let it wait.

I have learned that I cannot facet when I am tired, I loose concentration and make a mistake.

In general, this was a much easier transfer that I have done before, I really like how the PaleoFill Powder filled in the gap. It make the transfer very easy. I am confident that it is a good joint.

Because I left a gap. I am confident that I did not put any stress into the joint which I suspect could cause a slight shift when I remove it from the jig.

I know that a lot of people also use baking soda to do the same thing. I wanted to test this with their products initially, giving it the best chance for success.

If I can cut the crown without loosing the stone, I will try adding some baking soda on the next one.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A re-test of CA from Paleo Bond
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:11 pm 
Offline
Gold Member

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:00 am
Posts: 1322
Location: Wylie Texas but in Alaska for a while
A quick update
I took the stone out of the transfer jig and did a quick twist test before I took off the first dop. The stone popped loose from the new V dop.

In the past I have had this problem if the stone was not completely clean.
I cleaned the stone and the pocket of CA glue with Acetone and then Alochol and let them dry.
I remounted both dops in the transfer jig and tested the fit. The stone fit very tightly into the V dop.
I added a drop og the thon PB02 to the V dop and lowered the stone into the V dop.
I am going to let it cure a while before I re-test the stone to see if it sticks.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A re-test of CA from Paleo Bond
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:26 pm 
Offline
Gold Member

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:00 am
Posts: 1322
Location: Wylie Texas but in Alaska for a while
QUICK UPDATE
The reglued stone seems to be holding. I did a pretty severe twist test this morning and neither end of the stone came free.

So either I did not clean the stone well enlugh, or the PaleoBond 100x likes the PB02 as a primer on the surface (which is what they recommended and what I did on the first side.
I am going to try and cut the crown over the next few days and see how t goes.
I will try to do some more testing with some other finished stones to see if it was thje cleaning or the PB02 that did the trick.

The OB02 is a very thin glue, and is what the recommend when bonding 2 stones together, or repairing a broken stone, It penetrates the crasks on the specimans. I cannot imagine that there are many cracks on a polished faceted synthetic stone, but I am sure at some level they are there.

It made since to use it on the first side, when I had a stone ground with a rough disk.

I hope to have time to do more testing later, but it will be a few more days before things free up.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A re-test of CA from Paleo Bond
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:07 pm 
Offline
Gold Member

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:00 am
Posts: 1322
Location: Wylie Texas but in Alaska for a while
I have been distracted with other projects, but I did a twist test on the transferred gem that has been sitting since the last post. it is still well anchored.

I checked with Barbara and she said I could post the link to the Paleo Bond web site.

I am sending them an email with my test results.

I am going to ask if they would consider a new filler material that is a combination of the one they have with some baking soda, to make breaking the bond easier on heat sensitive stones.

here is their web site:

http://www.paleobond.com/


One project that distracted me was a wood working project using burls that I collected from my daughters fire wood pile. I cut them into slabs and was cutting out letters for a sign. The PB02 is a thin CA from Paleobond that they designed to stabilize fossles and mineral specimans. It worked very well on the burl that had some weak areas. I also used some of the powder to fill in some areas on the back that had problems. I know that wood is not gemstone, but the PB02 was thin enough to penetrate some of the fine cracks and stabilize the material before there was a problem.

I had threated the material with PEG before I cut it, so it should be pretty stable and I have not seen any new cracks forming.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 4 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Gemology Style ported to phpBB3 by Christian Bullock