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 Post subject: PAN PCD 13.000 question
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:56 pm 
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Hello everyone,

With the PAN PCD 13.000 on Zinc+ or Batt, can go straight to pre-polish from a 600 Diamond Mesh Electroplated Lap?

Thank you

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Last edited by Miguel on Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: PAN PCD 13.000 question
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:49 pm 
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I do just that all the time; although, in my case I'm using a cast zinc instead of the zinc+.


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 Post subject: Re: PAN PCD 13.000 question
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:01 pm 
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I noticed Rex mentioning he did that on sapphire. Seems pretty great to me...right now I'm going 600/1200/3000 Batt/60k Diamatrix (it takes a while)....I need to get my Dia-Z+ refinished and test this out.

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 Post subject: Re: PAN PCD 13.000 question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:27 am 
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I've been using 13k PCD on BATT as prepolish after 600 or 1200, depending on the size of the stone. I like it a LOT! Faster than 3k, believe it or not, and a commercial polish to boot. Takes mere seconds for a wet-looking polish after.

I just got a Zinc+/GreenWay lap and charged it up with 13k also. Had a strange experience of using it with water causing severe orangepeel on a Nigerian tourmaline, so stopped and went back to my BATT. Not sure if it was the particular piece of tourmaline or what, but going to test and find out.

One thing I did notice was the Zinc+ was a harder surface and the 13k charge did not take as well as on the BATT. But I'm pretty sure that with a couple big stones of use it will even out.

Hope this helps

-Allan

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 Post subject: Re: PAN PCD 13.000 question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:14 pm 
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Posting this to the forum from a message exchange I had with Miguel:

Quote:
So far, with tourmaline the 13k works best for me on BATT, using water as a lubricant. I have not tried cutting any beryl with the Zinc+ yet, though I have a nice aqua on the dop that I'll be trying that tonight.

I am able to cut in small facets using the 13k on BATT. For that matter, I also use my GreenWay with water (I have a GreenWing with BATT outer and GreenWay inner) for cutting in some small facets on my tourmalines with good success. One must be careful to have a well-charged lap, higher speeds and VERY slowly lower the stone to avoid gouging the lap if you're cutting a facet into a corner or edge.

My only cautions using the BATT or Zinc+ with emerald is that it does produce dark swarf and sometimes bits of BATT will accumulate in pits or fractures in the stones. In tourmaline I've soaked the stones for a day or so vinegar which has dissolved the metal. I'm not sure how emerald will react to this.

I have one of Jon's old WaterWings which was some sort of ceramic matrix with diamond for the outer band and I forget what for polishing on the inner band. It was water-only and did not produce any dark swarf for cutting, but I found it extremely slow. I used it for some included mandarin spessartite with surface-reaching inclusions with excellent results though extremely slow cutting.

-Allan

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 Post subject: Re: PAN PCD 13.000 question
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:49 am 
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Yes of course you can, it's a commercial polish more than a traditional prepolish. The finish will be finer on a BATT, the Zinc+ will be flatter and able to move meets more quickly.


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 Post subject: Re: PAN PCD 13.000 question
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:29 pm 
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I just tested my Zinc+/Greenway last night on a piece of Nigerian aquamarine. I found the Zinc+ is quite a bit more aggressive than the BATT, leaving visible scratches/trails. As it's new I had to add more 13k diamond stick to it a few times, and wonder if I've overcharged some areas. The scratches/trails were very similar to those on my BATT when I've been a bit to heavy-handed with the diamond.

I also noticed on a couple of facets tearing or orange-peel-like results. This was the norm on all facets of a tourmaline I originally tried on the Zinc+ which forced me to move back to my BATT. I wonder whether this is related to the above potential over-charging.

For making meets, the Zinc+ is faster at moving facets than the BATT and feels harder. However the resulting facets on either BATT or Zinc+ both seem equally sharp to my eyes at 10x loupe.

It's bit too early for me to make any decision on which lap I prefer. The BATT has been a familiar reliable standby in my cutting for years, so I know how it works and how it reacts. The Zinc+ is considerably lighter and has a harder feel to it when cutting, but I need to get it fully loaded with diamond and try a few more stones on it. I suspect I'll find each has strengths with the different stones I cut and I'll use them accordingly.

FWIW, I cut far too many tourmaline, plus some garnet, beryl and occasionally spinel and sapphire.

Hope this helps

-Allan

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 Post subject: Re: PAN PCD 13.000 question
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:41 pm 
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I've done 13k PCD directly from a 360 Crystalite standard more than once in the past [on synthetic sapphire]. It's shocking how fast the 13k cuts. Then straight to 60k on diamatrix (I use a dominatrix lap).

Now I typically use an Adamas sintered lap (which one depends on the material) / 13k / 60k (just a kiss).

I think whether 13k is appropriate would be a question of how much subsurface damage etc. The 13k can certainly pre-polish from a 600 in terms of surface quality.


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 Post subject: Re: PAN PCD 13.000 question
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:54 pm 
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Jclimactic wrote:
I've done 13k PCD directly from a 360 Crystalite standard more than once in the past [on synthetic sapphire]. It's shocking how fast the 13k cuts. Then straight to 60k on diamatrix (I use a dominatrix lap).

Now I typically use an Adamas sintered lap (which one depends on the material) / 13k / 60k (just a kiss).

I think whether 13k is appropriate would be a question of how much subsurface damage etc. The 13k can certainly pre-polish from a 600 in terms of surface quality.


I was wondering if you have tips on using the Adamas sintered laps? The material removal lap is a dream and I love it, but I used the 8+ lap on some natural sapphire and got a lot of pitting and tearing. I know he is developing a fluid for smoother cutting which will be great as well.

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 Post subject: Re: PAN PCD 13.000 question
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:00 am 
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PandaP wrote:
I was wondering if you have tips on using the Adamas sintered laps? The material removal lap is a dream and I love it, but I used the 8+ lap on some natural sapphire and got a lot of pitting and tearing. I know he is developing a fluid for smoother cutting which will be great as well.


Before using the new sintered ones I was cutting with BATT/600 primarily. So my process evolved from that just to give some context.

Two major things I picked up quickly: more water, and more speed. With the sintered I have found that I had to turn up my drip rate fairly considerably versus what I was used to before. With a slower drip I got more tearing, and also scratching. Much more water than I used previously when cutting with the charged BATT.

I also tended to run the BATT at about 400-500rpm (for the 600 watercut, slower for pre-polish/polish). The sintered likes to run faster at about 800-1000rpm, if I run it slower I tend to see more pitting.

When I’ve had the issue in the past, those adjustments helped. They don’t necessarily eliminate it completely - and I find typically where there is an issue it occurs on opposing facets (and more likely if they are large), and on particular stones. I had a bit more issue on one blue synthetic sapphire, but cut other blue, red, orange, yellow, green, violet, material without any significant problems (other than direction hardness issues, but that’ a whole other story). I’m now cutting a set from a synthetic bicolor boule and there’s been no tearing/pitting so far even though I cut one of the pieces from the rind end of the boule.

The adjustments have helped me, and usually if the problem does still occur I find it’s not deep and pre-polishes out quickly without a major issue. I’ve only cut sapphire on the 8+ so far (all synthetic) and it’s not particularly prone to deep subsurface damage.

The FFC additive really does help too (Tom let me try a pre-production sample). The finish on the stone off the 8+ with the FFC was materially better.

Hope that’s some help.


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 Post subject: Re: PAN PCD 13.000 question
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:14 pm 
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I will answer the sintered lap question in the Adamas cutting fluid thread.

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 Post subject: Re: PAN PCD 13.000 question
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:05 pm 
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Jclimactic wrote:
PandaP wrote:
I was wondering if you have tips on using the Adamas sintered laps? The material removal lap is a dream and I love it, but I used the 8+ lap on some natural sapphire and got a lot of pitting and tearing. I know he is developing a fluid for smoother cutting which will be great as well.


Before using the new sintered ones I was cutting with BATT/600 primarily. So my process evolved from that just to give some context.

Two major things I picked up quickly: more water, and more speed. With the sintered I have found that I had to turn up my drip rate fairly considerably versus what I was used to before. With a slower drip I got more tearing, and also scratching. Much more water than I used previously when cutting with the charged BATT.

I also tended to run the BATT at about 400-500rpm (for the 600 watercut, slower for pre-polish/polish). The sintered likes to run faster at about 800-1000rpm, if I run it slower I tend to see more pitting.

When I’ve had the issue in the past, those adjustments helped. They don’t necessarily eliminate it completely - and I find typically where there is an issue it occurs on opposing facets (and more likely if they are large), and on particular stones. I had a bit more issue on one blue synthetic sapphire, but cut other blue, red, orange, yellow, green, violet, material without any significant problems (other than direction hardness issues, but that’ a whole other story). I’m now cutting a set from a synthetic bicolor boule and there’s been no tearing/pitting so far even though I cut one of the pieces from the rind end of the boule.

The adjustments have helped me, and usually if the problem does still occur I find it’s not deep and pre-polishes out quickly without a major issue. I’ve only cut sapphire on the 8+ so far (all synthetic) and it’s not particularly prone to deep subsurface damage.

The FFC additive really does help too (Tom let me try a pre-production sample). The finish on the stone off the 8+ with the FFC was materially better.

Hope that’s some help.


That does help, thank you!

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 Post subject: Re: PAN PCD 13.000 question
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:52 pm 
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gembug wrote:
I just tested my Zinc+/Greenway last night on a piece of Nigerian aquamarine. I found the Zinc+ is quite a bit more aggressive than the BATT, leaving visible scratches/trails. As it's new I had to add more 13k diamond stick to it a few times, and wonder if I've overcharged some areas. The scratches/trails were very similar to those on my BATT when I've been a bit to heavy-handed with the diamond.

I also noticed on a couple of facets tearing or orange-peel-like results. This was the norm on all facets of a tourmaline I originally tried on the Zinc+ which forced me to move back to my BATT. I wonder whether this is related to the above potential over-charging.

For making meets, the Zinc+ is faster at moving facets than the BATT and feels harder. However the resulting facets on either BATT or Zinc+ both seem equally sharp to my eyes at 10x loupe.

It's bit too early for me to make any decision on which lap I prefer. The BATT has been a familiar reliable standby in my cutting for years, so I know how it works and how it reacts. The Zinc+ is considerably lighter and has a harder feel to it when cutting, but I need to get it fully loaded with diamond and try a few more stones on it. I suspect I'll find each has strengths with the different stones I cut and I'll use them accordingly.

FWIW, I cut far too many tourmaline, plus some garnet, beryl and occasionally spinel and sapphire.

Hope this helps

-Allan


Allan,

I read that you go straight from pre-polish on a Batt lap with 13K, to polish with the Greenway lap.

Pre-polish on a Batt lap with 13K, minimizes the rounding of facets, that give the Greenway lap?

I asking it, because I have the Greenway lap, It is very nice for polish Emeralds, but it, give rounding of facets

Thank you.

Miguel

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 Post subject: Re: PAN PCD 13.000 question
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:44 pm 
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Hi Miguel - I think for your standards of cutting, do not use the Greenway. Use the Diamatrix/Dominatrix instead. The Greenway does round the facet edges very slightly, especially if you press hard. I run my machine at 600-700 rpm for polishing, with a good water drip (1-2 drops per second).

For me, the rounding is not noticeable enough to be an issue, but it sounds like you're aiming for perfect crisp meets. The Greenway is fast and versatile, but will produce some facet rounding depending on your technique. When I compare to using my RedWing+ (copper outer, BA5T inner) the Greenway is noticeably less crisp, but that's at 10x+ magnification. At polite viewing distance it's not noticeable IMHO.

Hope this helps.

-Allan

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