January 24 Through February 4—TUCSON, ARIZONA: Annual show
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 Post subject: Re: What type of stone do you cut most often for customers?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:10 am 
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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, this is true. I am enjoying this conversation immensely. I as a faceter enjoy the cutting process, challenge and outcome from the process. I am always looking to improve my technique, speed, quality and of course yield. I have been cutting via the meet point method for years and love the challenge of meet point faceting. I am curious how many faceters actually “preform” before cutting. I tend to orient my rough, pick a design and start cutting. So really I am cutting to the design instead of cutting to the rough which I am sure is costing me weight. No two pieces of rough are the same so I wonder if I am always trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? I am curious how the people like Precision Gem, Lisa Elser and others who make a living cutting do it?


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 Post subject: Re: What type of stone do you cut most often for customers?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:16 am 
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1bwana1 wrote:
Precision Gem wrote:
1bwana1 wrote:
Maybe we are just having a small difference on what a precision cut stone is. If a mixed cut stone, step cut pavilion and standard brilliant cut crown, where the craftsmanship is of high quality (meet point of facets are correct, and no window) can be defined as "precision cut", then there is no disagreement at all. Then the difference is primarily one of methodology, and I stand by opinion that the "meet point" faceting method produces lower yields, and less optimized color/inclusion control than preform faceting.

Speaking of the Germans, do consider the stones pictured on this website of my good friends at Paul Wild in Kirschweiler Germany to be precision cut? These are what I have been referring to as well cut in the traditional mixed cut style. I can assure you they are cut with the preform method. not the meet point method.

http://www.paulwild.com/en/our-portfolio.html


No, none of those are “precision cut”. Only a stone cut by Precision Gem is a precision cut stone. I invented the words! :lol:
They do look to be pretty good cuts however, but boring. My typical customer would reject them.

Alex, I started a thread about preforming, as I think it’s a very interesting topic, but not many people replied. For the most part, I do little preforming. I cut a flat spot for the table and very quickly rough in the approximate shape, mostly just cleaning up the stone. I’ll spend maybe 5 minutes at most doing this. To cut a preform as 1bwana1 is talking about is creating a much more accurate shape for the stone, so well, that the facets can be placed in with basically a polishing lap. This type of preform is normally done on a cabbing type while rather than a faceting flat disk. Here, often the crown is cut first, and then tha pavilion is just a step cut to follow the contour of the stone.
I’m sure you are cutting the pavilion first, realizing that the angles of the pavilion are most critical to the performance of the stone.

Faceting is all about compromises; Cut for color or cut for size, cut out an inclusion and have a 1 carat stone or leave it in and make a 2 carat stone, cut a thick girdle to add some weight - piss of the setter of the stone.....
I’m not cutting $100,000 stones, so a little less weight is not the end of the world for me. The “Precision” cutting is what sells my stone. If I were to cut in the style 1bwana1 talks of, then I would be in competition with thousands of others. With out style of cutting the compititon is much more limited. Jewelers who can buy the traditional style cut stones from hundreds of sources, will often ohh and aw over the more unique well cut stones you can offer. Maybe not in 1bwana1’s country, but here in the USA for sure.

By the way, where are you 1bwana1?

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 Post subject: Re: What type of stone do you cut most often for customers?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:26 pm 
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1bwana1 wrote:
Speaking of the Germans, do consider the stones pictured on this website of my good friends at Paul Wild in Kirschweiler Germany to be precision cut? These are what I have been referring to as well cut in the traditional mixed cut style. I can assure you they are cut with the preform method. not the meet point method. http://www.paulwild.com/en/our-portfolio.html


The Birkenfeld district cutting culture still holds onto 19th century tooling, methods, and gemstone designs. The gemtrade in Germany is rather conservative. Bernd Munsteiner was radical by their standards and remains an outlier to this day. The progressive edge of gemstone faceting mostly originates in the U.S. and Canada.

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 Post subject: Re: What type of stone do you cut most often for customers?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:45 pm 
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Precision Gem wrote:

No, none of those are “precision cut”. Only a stone cut by Precision Gem is a precision cut stone. I invented the words!

By the way, where are you 1bwana1?


First, let me thank you for inventing "precision cuts", I really do love many of those stones. =D>


LOL!


I currently live in La Jolla, California. La Jolla in Spanish translates to "The Jewel" appropriately enough. However, I have spent much of my time since the early 170's in East Africa mining gemstones, and am currently partnering with some of the new deposits in Ethiopia. So much is being found there currently.


Last edited by 1bwana1 on Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What type of stone do you cut most often for customers?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:08 pm 
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thomas.adamas wrote:

The Birkenfeld district cutting culture still holds onto 19th century tooling, methods, and gemstone designs. The gemtrade in Germany is rather conservative. Bernd Munsteiner was radical by their standards and remains an outlier to this day. The progressive edge of gemstone faceting mostly originates in the U.S. and Canada.



Yes, many of the cutting families have hundreds of years in the business. While their tastes may be traditional, their methods are often the most modern in the colored stone World. The breadth, and size of their rough stockpiles are also unmatched. I was a frequent visitor with both Bernd Munsteiner and his son. His cuts are unique, I am a fan. Even he uses his unique style on less expensive to moderate materials. The other houses in Idar did produce this style for a while in the 1980's to 1990's but found it to be a niche market and mostly left it. I treated and supplied hundreds of kilos of preforms yearly for Idar during that period.

I agree that the most progressive cutting is being done in the U.S. these days. I think this is because of the large size of our hobby cutting population. A population I am happy to be part of these days. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: What type of stone do you cut most often for customers?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:39 am 
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Perhaps this is the place to ask how cutters producing high-end 'traditional' stones like those on the PaulWild site achieve the quite symmetrical placement of lozenge-shaped pavilion facets on stones of lower symmetry, like rectangular cushions, ovals and pears? And how is it done reproducibly to achieve matched pairs? Are criss-cross lines actually drawn on the preform to guide placement of the facets, like the commercial cutting of diamond-checker crowns? I find it relatively easy to produce regular step-cut pavilions on mixed-cut stones, but I find the regular placement of numerous, small, lozenge-shaped pavilion facets at alternating index settings on these lower symmetry stones very difficult using a modern machine. Is this something done more easily on a jamb-peg machine, with greater degrees of freedom? (Although I mostly cut meetpoint designs, I admire the softer, rippling look of the reflections from these often denigrated 'pineapple' cuts, especially on paler material.)


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 Post subject: Re: What type of stone do you cut most often for customers?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:00 am 
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1bwana1 wrote:
Precision Gem wrote:

No, none of those are “precision cut”. Only a stone cut by Precision Gem is a precision cut stone. I invented the words!

By the way, where are you 1bwana1?


First, let me thank you for inventing "precision cuts", I really do love many of those stones. =D>


LOL!


I currently live in La Jolla, California. La Jolla in Spanish translates to "The Jewel" appropriately enough. However, I have spent much of my time since the early 170's in East Africa mining gemstones, and am currently partnering with some of the new deposits in Ethiopia. So much is being found there currently.

Will you be in Tucson this year? Maybe we can meet up for a bite to eat, or a beer.

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www.precisiongem.com


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 Post subject: Re: What type of stone do you cut most often for customers?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:56 am 
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Duncan Miller wrote:
Perhaps this is the place to ask how cutters producing high-end 'traditional' stones like those on the PaulWild site achieve the quite symmetrical placement of lozenge-shaped pavilion facets on stones of lower symmetry, like rectangular cushions, ovals and pears? And how is it done reproducibly to achieve matched pairs? Are criss-cross lines actually drawn on the preform to guide placement of the facets, like the commercial cutting of diamond-checker crowns? I find it relatively easy to produce regular step-cut pavilions on mixed-cut stones, but I find the regular placement of numerous, small, lozenge-shaped pavilion facets at alternating index settings on these lower symmetry stones very difficult using a modern machine. Is this something done more easily on a jamb-peg machine, with greater degrees of freedom? (Although I mostly cut meetpoint designs, I admire the softer, rippling look of the reflections from these often denigrated 'pineapple' cuts, especially on paler material.)



The key is learning to match the height of each row of facets, and the facets in each row. Understand the the shape of the facets is controlled by the difference in angle between rows, not the absolute angle. Play with this relationship, and the method will become easy and natural. Yes, the jamb peg machines are naturals at this, but I currently cut on a facetron, and have used Ultratechs, and others. They are all capable of doing a great job with this style


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 Post subject: Re: What type of stone do you cut most often for customers?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:59 am 
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Precision Gem wrote:
Will you be in Tucson this year? Maybe we can meet up for a bite to eat, or a beer.


I am trying to arrange my schedule to get out to Tucson this year. So far no reservations, and it gets difficult the longer I wait. I would love to meet you in person if possible. Let's keep in touch with the hope that it works out.


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 Post subject: Re: What type of stone do you cut most often for customers?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:40 pm 
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1bwana1 wrote:
Duncan Miller wrote:
Perhaps this is the place to ask how cutters producing high-end 'traditional' stones like those on the PaulWild site achieve the quite symmetrical placement of lozenge-shaped pavilion facets on stones of lower symmetry, like rectangular cushions, ovals and pears? And how is it done reproducibly to achieve matched pairs? Are criss-cross lines actually drawn on the preform to guide placement of the facets, like the commercial cutting of diamond-checker crowns? I find it relatively easy to produce regular step-cut pavilions on mixed-cut stones, but I find the regular placement of numerous, small, lozenge-shaped pavilion facets at alternating index settings on these lower symmetry stones very difficult using a modern machine. Is this something done more easily on a jamb-peg machine, with greater degrees of freedom? (Although I mostly cut meetpoint designs, I admire the softer, rippling look of the reflections from these often denigrated 'pineapple' cuts, especially on paler material.)



The key is learning to match the height of each row of facets, and the facets in each row. Understand the the shape of the facets is controlled by the difference in angle between rows, not the absolute angle.

Thank you for responding. Yes, I do understand this in principle, but struggle with putting it into practice, selecting appropriate index settings and angles as I work around a row. Perhaps I just need more patient practice.


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