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 Post subject: Re: Availability of the Graves 5XL
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:25 am 
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glhays wrote:
aaronllewellyn wrote:
OK, I'm back on the graves bandwagon again, I cant find any Facetron features that can justify the $1600 difference in price. Not to mention the facetron wait time is now 8-12 weeks. Plenty of users seem to be having a a great time with their 5xl, so I'll go for it, if anyone knows of a good vendor let me know, preferably one that's not just drop shipping directly from graves.

Not to bring dome and gloom, reading these threads on this subject over quite some time, it is not likely some other dealer will have a machine sitting around, as the dealers have dealt with the same issues of getting machines as promised by graves.
Greg



I found a lapidary shop that has one in stock but I'm not telling.


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 Post subject: Re: Availability of the Graves 5XL
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:26 am 
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justinkprim wrote:


Thanks, but I'm all the way in NY so... nice to know they don't lose too much value anyways.


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 Post subject: Re: Availability of the Graves 5XL
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:01 am 
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aaronllewellyn wrote:
OK, I'm back on the graves bandwagon again, I cant find any Facetron features that can justify the $1600 difference in price. Not to mention the facetron wait time is now 8-12 weeks. Plenty of users seem to be having a a great time with their 5xl, so I'll go for it, if anyone knows of a good vendor let me know, preferably one that's not just drop shipping directly from graves.


Just an opinion, but I think you would be better served with a used Facetron. Excellent service and parts when needed are readily available from Facetron. It is a first rate machine, and company.

I can cut a nice stone with either the Graves or the Facetron. So I believe you will be able to as well.
However, I find the design, quality and accuracy of the Facetron to be far superior. I think the resale market verifies that this is a common perception.

Buy one of the older Facetron models with the needle strain gauge instead of the dial indicator. Then send the head and mast to Jarvi to be upgraded. He will bring the whole thing up to current specifications for $500 and he is picky about it. I know of a case in the last year where he just sent out a whole new head because he didn't think the used one achieved the results he demands.

Facetrons, maintain their price well for a reason. Buy right the first time, and buy once. I have helped a number of people do this thing in the last year. They pay between 1,500 and 1,700 for the used machine, and $500 for the upgrade and end up with a first class, machine for right just over 2K. They often also get a great set of laps, and accessories with the machine.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/facetron-and-l ... .TRS0.TSS0

The link is for a nice looking machine with lots of extras. Add the $500 and you would have to spend much more that the $2700 if you bought a new Graves. The $2,200 current price is a little higher that I have been able to find them recently, but the extras in this offering may be worth it.

Whatever you decide, I wish you the best of luck.

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Availability of the Graves 5XL
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:04 pm 
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aaronllewellyn wrote:
glhays wrote:
aaronllewellyn wrote:
OK, I'm back on the graves bandwagon again, I cant find any Facetron features that can justify the $1600 difference in price. Not to mention the facetron wait time is now 8-12 weeks. Plenty of users seem to be having a a great time with their 5xl, so I'll go for it, if anyone knows of a good vendor let me know, preferably one that's not just drop shipping directly from graves.

Not to bring dome and gloom, reading these threads on this subject over quite some time, it is not likely some other dealer will have a machine sitting around, as the dealers have dealt with the same issues of getting machines as promised by graves.
Greg



I found a lapidary shop that has one in stock but I'm not telling.

I am glad to hear you may have found one. You can always look into a Poly-Metric machine and later down the road add the OMF concave unit to your toolset.
Greg

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 Post subject: Re: Availability of the Graves 5XL
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:15 am 
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1bwana1 wrote:
aaronllewellyn wrote:
OK, I'm back on the graves bandwagon again, I cant find any Facetron features that can justify the $1600 difference in price. Not to mention the facetron wait time is now 8-12 weeks. Plenty of users seem to be having a a great time with their 5xl, so I'll go for it, if anyone knows of a good vendor let me know, preferably one that's not just drop shipping directly from graves.


Just an opinion, but I think you would be better served with a used Facetron. Excellent service and parts when needed are readily available from Facetron. It is a first rate machine, and company.

I can cut a nice stone with either the Graves or the Facetron. So I believe you will be able to as well.
However, I find the design, quality and accuracy of the Facetron to be far superior. I think the resale market verifies that this is a common perception.

Buy one of the older Facetron models with the needle strain gauge instead of the dial indicator. Then send the head and mast to Jarvi to be upgraded. He will bring the whole thing up to current specifications for $500 and he is picky about it. I know of a case in the last year where he just sent out a whole new head because he didn't think the used one achieved the results he demands.

Facetrons, maintain their price well for a reason. Buy right the first time, and buy once. I have helped a number of people do this thing in the last year. They pay between 1,500 and 1,700 for the used machine, and $500 for the upgrade and end up with a first class, machine for right just over 2K. They often also get a great set of laps, and accessories with the machine.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/facetron-and-l ... .TRS0.TSS0

The link is for a nice looking machine with lots of extras. Add the $500 and you would have to spend much more that the $2700 if you bought a new Graves. The $2,200 current price is a little higher that I have been able to find them recently, but the extras in this offering may be worth it.

Whatever you decide, I wish you the best of luck.

Steve


In the future I may go the Facetron route (or Ultratec if I have the funds), The price difference is a deal breaker for me just because I only have so much to spend overall (for the machine + laps + other gear and 6+ months of full-time practice rough) My wife will allow me to dedicate my extra time to it while also finishing my school, but if I were to spend another $1600 I would be exceeding my available money and cutting into our actual cash supply, which she wouldn't be too happy about [-X .

Availability of replacement parts is a real concern of course, I really wish Graves would hire a consulting firm or something to straighten out their business, I don't quite understand why they have so many issues. Gearloose mentioned they should have discontinued the Mk 1 and 4 and just produced the 5xl, he's probably right. Other than that, hiring a single customer service rep for minimum wage (even part time) could solve a lot of communication issues. I don't know what could be going on in there but as someone in their senior year of business management (BBA) I wish I knew.

In a few years it seems they'll either be part of history, have new owners or figure out their issues and solve them.


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 Post subject: Re: Availability of the Graves 5XL
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:03 pm 
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Ok, I'm going to check out Polymetric since every dealer I asked said that graves is shipping nothing, completely lying about shipping dates and basically just holding onto these poor people's money.


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 Post subject: Re: Availability of the Graves 5XL
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:56 pm 
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aaronllewellyn wrote:
Ok, I'm going to check out Polymetric since every dealer I asked said that graves is shipping nothing, completely lying about shipping dates and basically just holding onto these poor people's money.

I wasn't trying to bring the doom, it already exists.
I use the scintallator and found a good used OMF unit. Very well built machines. Not as portable as a facetron or ultratec if your looking for a machine to carry to from different locations.
Speak with Zane at Poly-Metric he's a good guy and doesn't mislead the reality. As Jon {Gearloose} said earlier, todays machines are built one at a time not by the tens and hundreds on a production line there's a lead time on all of them
Greg

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 Post subject: Re: Availability of the Graves 5XL
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:13 pm 
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aaronllewellyn wrote:
Ok, I'm going to check out Polymetric since every dealer I asked said that graves is shipping nothing, completely lying about shipping dates and basically just holding onto these poor people's money.



Good decision. The maker of your important tools must in many ways be trusted partner. Support is so very important. glHayes has given solid advice as always.


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 Post subject: Re: Availability of the Graves 5XL
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:20 pm 
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1bwana1 wrote:
aaronllewellyn wrote:
Ok, I'm going to check out Polymetric since every dealer I asked said that graves is shipping nothing, completely lying about shipping dates and basically just holding onto these poor people's money.



Good decision. The maker of your important tools must in many ways be trusted partner. Support is so very important. glHayes has given solid advice as always.


Polymeric is having problems now too because they use a graves drip tank for their machines, according to Zane, Graves is not responding to any kind of communication and they're going to have to design new drip tanks. Lead time for a polymetric is 6 weeks, I don't think it's going to be better than that, sure I could order a 5xl but by the time the motor quits, Graves will be literally in, what it's name is.

I guess I can spend 6 weeks reading and acquiring every faceting guide I can find, Amazon prime has created a very impatient generation, speaking from experience.


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 Post subject: Re: Availability of the Graves 5XL
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:31 pm 
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You could make your own drip tank, I make one out of a large pretzel container holds about a gallon.

I use a platform made from wood that sits on the post for the original drip tank, spins so I can swing it out of the way when I need to change laps.

Silicone a screw valve into the container and add a piece of tubing to let the water reach the lap, much better than the original tank.

Just thought I'd throw that out in case you wanted to order one without the tank and get it sooner.


Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Availability of the Graves 5XL
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:05 am 
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The used Facetron on EBay will close the auction in 11 hours. Currently at 2200. With all the laps and extras it comes with it is much less expensive than a new Graves 5XL. Much less. No need to send it in for the upgrades. The Facetron is super accurate with the needle strain gauge that this machine comes with when used properly. Admittedly I am a little biased, but I think a used Facetron is a much better machine overall than a new Graves. Over 50 years of cutting experience has convinced me of this.

The ebay machine looks to be in excellent condition as do all the extras. If you are as impatient generation as you say, this setup will get you cutting faster than any other path I can think of right now. It even comes with rough to learn on.

Spend the shipping time learning about the machine here:

https://facetingacademy.com/official-facetron-videos/

Also on things like this I find Ebay does a good job of protecting the buyer.

Maybe take another look.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/facetron-and-l ... .TRS0.TSS0


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 Post subject: Re: Availability of the Graves 5XL
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:09 am 
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1bwana1 wrote:
The used Facetron on EBay will close the auction in 11 hours. Currently at 2200. With all the laps and extras it comes with it is much less expensive than a new Graves 5XL. Much less. No need to send it in for the upgrades. The Facetron is super accurate with the needle strain gauge that this machine comes with when used properly. Admittedly I am a little biased, but I think a used Facetron is a much better machine overall than a new Graves. Over 50 years of cutting experience has convinced me of this.

The ebay machine looks to be in excellent condition as do all the extras. If you are as impatient generation as you say, this setup will get you cutting faster than any other path I can think of right now. It even comes with rough to learn on.

Spend the shipping time learning about the machine here:

https://facetingacademy.com/official-facetron-videos/

Also on things like this I find Ebay does a good job of protecting the buyer.

Maybe take another look.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/facetron-and-l ... .TRS0.TSS0


I know it's a decent deal, I just cant order until a week or so from now. bad timing I guess (the seller is not offering a shipping option either) thanks for the info though, I did take a look. I'm most likely going to order a new Polymetric Xristal-tec 87, since their lead time is about 6 weeks. I'm not planning on touching a graves machine at this point. Every dealer I talked to was extremely upset about the subject in general, lots of 5xl orders in limbo, one as far back as May 2017.


Last edited by aaronllewellyn on Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Availability of the Graves 5XL
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:11 am 
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JCD wrote:
You could make your own drip tank, I make one out of a large pretzel container holds about a gallon.

I use a platform made from wood that sits on the post for the original drip tank, spins so I can swing it out of the way when I need to change laps.

Silicone a screw valve into the container and add a piece of tubing to let the water reach the lap, much better than the original tank.

Just thought I'd throw that out in case you wanted to order one without the tank and get it sooner.


Jim


As far as I know, they haven't run out of tanks for building machines yet, but it definitely was on Zane's mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Availability of the Graves 5XL
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:21 pm 
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aaronllewellyn wrote:
Polymeric is having problems now too because they use a graves drip tank for their machines, according to Zane, Graves is not responding to any kind of communication and they're going to have to design new drip tanks. Lead time for a polymetric is 6 weeks, I don't think it's going to be better than that, sure I could order a 5xl but by the time the motor quits, Graves will be literally in, what it's name is.
I guess I can spend 6 weeks reading and acquiring every faceting guide I can find, Amazon prime has created a very impatient generation, speaking from experience.


You can always replace your own motor by purchasing a replacement from an electric motor distributor. I think all faceting machine manufacturers have their own particular issues. It's a matter of what you are willing to deal with.

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 Post subject: Re: Availability of the Graves 5XL
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:13 am 
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thomas.adamas wrote:
aaronllewellyn wrote:
Polymeric is having problems now too because they use a graves drip tank for their machines, according to Zane, Graves is not responding to any kind of communication and they're going to have to design new drip tanks. Lead time for a polymetric is 6 weeks, I don't think it's going to be better than that, sure I could order a 5xl but by the time the motor quits, Graves will be literally in, what it's name is.
I guess I can spend 6 weeks reading and acquiring every faceting guide I can find, Amazon prime has created a very impatient generation, speaking from experience.


You can always replace your own motor by purchasing a replacement from an electric motor distributor. I think all faceting machine manufacturers have their own particular issues. It's a matter of what you are willing to deal with.


That's true, but I'm not going to buy a nearly $2000 piece of equipment if there's no support. A polymeric machine also allows me to buy their OMF fancy cutter in the future as well so I'm going that route.


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