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 Post subject: Re: The DARKSIDE Experience
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:55 pm 
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Here is a public exchange from another forum last year, just as one example of how common the attitudes can be.

Excerpted from a discussion. Fair Use claimed.


"...Are laps like the CREAMWAY that ... attractive to you? ..."

"Not attractive to me. I'm officially giving up on so called "MAGIC" laps. I'll stick to the tried and true methods."

Of course, I made no response. There is no point in responding to something like this, nor is any appropriate response possible. But this is far from being a rare attitude. Someone is satisfied with what they have, and would not even be receptive to discussion.

(Gotta run. Coal delivery today. I can hear the hooves.)


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 Post subject: Re: The DARKSIDE Experience
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:10 pm 
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"assuming that the new way has been generated by doing legitimate science or quality improvement."

Not always the case, unfortunately. I'm reminded of all the infomercials hawking new and improved substitutes for the garden hoe, which was pretty much perfected by 2000 BC.


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 Post subject: Re: The DARKSIDE Experience
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:36 pm 
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Quote:
Not always the case, unfortunately. I'm reminded of all the infomercials hawking new and improved substitutes for the garden hoe, which was pretty much perfected by 2000 BC.

Now, wait a minute! My wife bought this "Hoe-Matic" thing she used for gardening.
While she thought the name was laughable for reasons we will not explore, it was indeed an improvement.


Even the humble garden hose has been improved, I see.
There is a TV ad for this hose that gets big when you turn it on. Really. seriously..Surely people have seen that ad.
O Wait. Technically that probably predates the hoe.


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 Post subject: Re: The DARKSIDE Experience
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:43 pm 
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Gearloose wrote:
"...Are laps like the CREAMWAY that ... attractive to you? ..."

"Not attractive to me. I'm officially giving up on so called "MAGIC" laps. I'll stick to the tried and true methods."

You should tell me what forum this is, so I know to ignore the advice given on there.


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 Post subject: Re: The DARKSIDE Experience
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:50 pm 
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You know enough to anyway. I archived the response and deleted my account, so have no idea if it is still up.

You are young enough to recognize the feeling of waking up in a strange place or circumstances and thinking, "What am I DOING here?", right? :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: The DARKSIDE Experience
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:34 pm 
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Arya Akhavan wrote:
The old way is almost always crap, compared to the new way, assuming that the new way has been generated by doing legitimate science or quality improvement.


This is absolutely silly. The old ways are merely unimproved new ways and often times the "new" ways are merely old ways with better marketing plans attached. Never forget marketing when discussing science and quality improvement! I've worked for several places that would change their paint schemes and stickers, then go out and tout their new and improved stuff....sucked in a lot of people that way.

As for laps, well we are still effectively rubbing rocks together. The lap as a rock holder , (little diamonds are rocks aren't they?), has been improved greatly, but we are still doing the same thing that the ancients did. I wonder if they had as much fun though?

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 Post subject: Re: The DARKSIDE Experience
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:57 pm 
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Never forget marketing when discussing science and quality improvement! I've worked for several places that would change their paint schemes and stickers, then go out and tout their new and improved stuff....sucked in a lot of people that way.


I think over the years people have tuned that out as noise. When shopping I do not think I even SEE the words "New!" or "Improved" any more. That does not mean they are not on the package..We are just numbed to them.

Strictly speaking, there probably hasn't been anything new since the Wheel.
"Mere improvement is not Invention". And that's The Law.

Thinking it over, I realize I can be a neophobe as well. I ditched my "Smart" phone because it was smart, curious, and evil, and was grateful to dig out my regular cellphone. Sometimes something 'New' has features we do NOT want. In other words, I had reasons for my choice of an analog of a cast iron lap.

But the key difference here is that I TRIED the "Smart" phone before making the decision.


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 Post subject: Re: The DARKSIDE Experience
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:40 am 
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Gearloose wrote:
Now, wait a minute! My wife bought this "Hoe-Matic" thing she used for gardening.

If that's what I think it is, it's just a hoe and a tined cultivator on the same handle. No improvement on the hoe side that I can see.


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 Post subject: Re: The DARKSIDE Experience
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:28 pm 
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Quote:
Never forget marketing when discussing science and quality improvement! I've worked for several places that would change their paint schemes and stickers, then go out and tout their new and improved stuff....sucked in a lot of people that way.


I have given this a lot of thought. I believe the "NEW!" "IMPROVED!" hype works on products with an impulse or emotional component. One example is a box of TIDE detergent. From time to time it may have some "Magic Word" added to the box, but really it's the garish bullseye pattern designed to make a harried, stressed shopper reach out and grab it without a thought.
Cosmetics, of course, are usually non-useful items marketed with emotion only.

But we are making tools here. I defy anyone to give me a marketing reason as to why I should buy a 9/16 wrench of one brand over another, Snap-on vs, Craftsman, for example. Or a hammer, etc.

There is something special about utilitarian products. Unlike most consumer frivolity, you cannot MAKE someone want one. Maybe you can persuade them they need one, but that's the limit. You cannot tell a salesman "Go out and SELL!", as if it were some piece of paper like an insurance policy or junk bonds.
Imagine how silly it would be to telemarket toilet plungers....Even good ones.


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 Post subject: Re: The DARKSIDE Experience
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:57 pm 
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New and improved. Isn't that why we share information about techniques? Isn't that exactly why we buy new laps? The holy grail of laps is one that will polish all types of stones using water or oil, diamond or oxide. That might never exist but until someone comes out with it, I will continue to collect laps.

Convince you to buy the same thing in a different form? I now swear by my titanium hammer. It cost me a bit over $100. It weighs 10 oz. and hits harder than my 16 oz. it also transmits far less vibration. In my "no longer the young guy" days, having that hang on my waist all day makes a difference.

Or did I miss sarcasm in the statement above mine? I'm tired and had wayyy too much caffeine this morning.


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 Post subject: Re: The DARKSIDE Experience
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:01 pm 
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Gearloose wrote:
Even the humble garden hose has been improved, I see.
There is a TV ad for this hose that gets big when you turn it on. Really. seriously..Surely people have seen that ad.
O Wait. Technically that probably predates the hoe.

:lol: I can't believe no one touched that one, Jon! :lol:
I've seen that commercial and recall making a similar comment to my Hubby 8) .

OBTW -- It's called "The Pocket Hose" ... no joke! :P :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: The DARKSIDE Experience
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:52 pm 
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Barbara O. Ellis, GG wrote:
:lol: I can't believe no one touched that one, Jon! :lol:

Some folks don't go where Angels fear to tread -- but I doubt Jon's statement that it predates the "hoe." They were probably contemporaneous.

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 Post subject: Re: The DARKSIDE Experience
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:54 pm 
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Gearloose wrote:
I have given this a lot of thought. I believe the "NEW!" "IMPROVED!" hype works on products with an impulse or emotional component.
.
.
But we are making tools here. I defy anyone to give me a marketing reason as to why I should buy a 9/16 wrench of one brand over another, Snap-on vs, Craftsman, for example. Or a hammer, etc.

There is something special about utilitarian products. Unlike most consumer frivolity, you cannot MAKE someone want one. Maybe you can persuade them they need one, but that's the limit.


Really? I'm totally amazed at your response Jon. Do you really think that your laps are being bought for different reason than cosmetics are being sold? Let's see, cosmetics promise ease of use and a better looking face/body and your laps promise ease of use and a better looking face/body, (on a gem, but then wife/gem...not much difference is there?). This is not a complaint about your laps, I have several and like them a lot. Nothing wrong with marketing either, as long as the promise of the product is met.

Yes, there is something special about utilitarian products...they are mostly used by guys and heaven forbid that a guy be motivated by emotional marketing. We just hide it, at least we think we do. Check out this fret saw and tell me that anyone could honestly NOT be buying this because it's beautiful and that it arouses that manly attraction to fine tools that seems to be a genetic thing for many guy's. I could go out and buying a decent working fret saw for 1/10 of the cost of this baby, but I can also think of a thousand excuses to get one of these, (none of which is as real as I think it is, but hey, the wife doesn't know that).

I'm just guessing here, but I'll bet that you have more than a few highly machined, ornate tools floating around your shop that get little actual use, but they sure do look good. 8)


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 Post subject: Re: The DARKSIDE Experience
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:31 am 
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Quote:
Do you really think that your laps are being bought for different reason than cosmetics are being sold?


They had better be. Most cosmetic ads are outright lies.."Rub this stuff on, and you'll get dates". They never show actual testimony from real people
who achieved successful breedings using it. Perfume: I knew someone who always bought two bottles of the current fashion. One was for wifey, and one was to make sure he smelled right when he got home.

Quote:
I'm just guessing here, but I'll bet that you have more than a few highly machined, ornate tools floating around your shop that get little actual use, but they sure do look good.


Actually, only two that I can think of whose elegence I can admire, but, then I am a dour Yankee with Puritan forebearers.

One is this precision micrometer I had to buy when I was making the XS3's.
Image

The other is a "Tack Driver" whose picture would offend some sensitivities..a Mitchell P-08 Luger in Stainless. Form, Fit, Function.


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 Post subject: Re: The DARKSIDE Experience
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:02 pm 
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why would a gun be any more offensive then the results of a conchoidal fracture on a chunk of obsidian?


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