DR. HANNEMAN'S MINERAL COLLECTION WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR SALE IN THE NEAR FUTURE
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 Post subject: First-hand Omni-E Experience
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:09 am 
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As of June 2008, I retract the final statements I make here regarding the quality, support, and value for money. You can read the details surrounding my current viewpoint here:

http://www.omnifaceter.com

For the record: Based on what I have discovered since this post during my disassembly of my Omni, I retract my final comments.

I would NEVER buy an Omni Faceting Machine again nor recommend it to anyone.



****

I own an Omni-E and have had it for about 6 months. I have not cut a huge number of stones on it, but I have cut at least 15 in that time. They have ranged from a couple of matched pairs of 3.5mm Peridot, to a 10mm blood-red Pyrope garnet, to a large 15mm+ Citrine.

As a disclaimer, I do not have any financial interests in any faceting company, I don't sell any faceting machines or accessories, and for the record I'm machine-agnostic. I just want something that does what I want it to, and to do it well for a reasonable price. I do not want to start the "machine wars" here!

I formerly had an old MDR 102 from the early 80s. I had every index wheel I needed (32, 64, 80, 96, 120) and at least 40 different dops in brass and aluminum. I bought this machine used from an old acquaintance and used it for a number of years with reasonable success. I finally realized that I was spending at least as much time fighting the idiosyncracies of the machine as I was cutting stones, and wanted something that was newer. I am not knocking the MDR - that machine served me well over the years and I learned a lot about faceting during that time. And there are times when I miss it and wish I still had it around. Before that I learned on one of the original hand-faceting units built by a fellow down in Seattle - can't remember his name but I remember my parents driving around all day trying to find out how to find him so I could buy one!

I also have tried out a Facetron and handled a Fac-ette (but not cut a stone on a Fac-ette).

First impressions:
    - compact. Amazingly compact, probably 1/3 of the volume of my old machine.

    - low to the work surface. My old machine was on at least a 5" base which meant I had to sit in a tall chair and put a phone book or two beside it to rest my elbows on.

    - simple rack-and-pinon lowering system with coarse and fine height adjustment. It was more positive with less slop that my old machine, but then again that machine was 25 years old.

    - smaller splash pan than I was used to. This one only has about 1" extra room around an 8" lap, and is only perhaps 1" higher than the lap surface. I find it sprays a bit more than I like and I've added some plastic sheeting to catch most of it. The smaller diameter is a pain when trying to switch laps though.

    - the index pointer is on the BOTTOM of the quill, meaning you must raise the quill to see or adjust what index it's on. An inconvenience.

    - an unusual 45 degree adapter. It's like a really fat dop with a hole drilled in it at 45 degrees, looking something like half a dumbbell. A allen-key set screw is used to hold the stone dop in it.


What I Like
My first use of the Omni were a joy compared to my older machine. All parts were tight and well-fitted, and cutting an SRB really became one of cutting by sound and moving on to the next index. The depth of cut was repeatable and very accurate. The only time it wasn't was when I was a bit heavy on the hand and causing some flexing of the quill/head/mast. However I did run into alignment problems when cutting long stones, step cuts, and large stones (as discussed later).

I was wary of the keyed dops, as they system seemed rather primitive. There is a angle sliced out of the back end of the dop, and this butts up against a pin placed appropriately at the back of the quill (and on the transfer jig). However it works well and does not require excessive cheating to be on facet.

The way the quill itself holds the dop was also a bit sketchy to me - it's a friction-fit of the dop sliding into a precisely-drilled hole in the quill. The dop is held in place by a nylon set-screw. However after using it, I'm satisfied as it is machined to tight tolerances and holds the dops on center, it's easy and simple to use. I'm not sure how this will continue to work over time as rock dust and grit slowly grinds away at the fit, but we'll see. So far so good.

And lastly, the digital angle readout and adjustments are clear and work well. Theoretically you can get to 100th of a degree, but in practice I think it's probably closer to 2 or 3 1/100ths of a degree. I don't bother trying to cut that accurately as I find moving between laps is enough to disturb the angle, and when polishing some cheating is necessary anyhow.

The Strange
First off, I don't like the 45 angle dop. It's heavy, it's ugly (a minor point) and unlike others adapters, it doesn't have a 45 degree face to rest on the lap to check if your angle calibration is correct or not. It's not bad, it's just different. I personally don't like it and will probably get someone to machine me a replacement.

Second, the platen which the laps sit on is very large, probably 5.75" in diameter or so. This means it's too large to put a 6" saw blade on for a quick way to cut rough like I did on my old machine (it had a 2" base for the laps). 8" saw blades are too thick for my liking and there isn't enough clearance to the side of the splash bowl anyhow.

The swivel arm takes some getting used to. It doesn't have a locking mechanism and so you have to be careful not to bump it when you're cutting, but unless you're reaching through the machine for something (don't laugh, I managed to do it a couple times in the beginning) it's not a big problem. And apart from people speculating that it's not accurate or will fall out of alignment, the swivel seems pretty sturdy so far.

What I Don't Like
First off, the machine comes with a very thin manual and not much explanation of what is where. It also does not come with any instructions on how to do more than the basic alignments. This is probably a good thing for most as it prevents them from screwing up their machine... but I'm used to my old MDR which came with detailed instructions of how to align it and so on. An maintenance and adjustment manual would be nice.

The motor is small and not as powerful as I'd like. It takes a while to get to full speed when started, and will definitely slow down when cutting a large stone or polishing a large facet.

Most irritating is that the lap speed adjustment is non-linear. Meaning you turn it on and at the lowest speed (for example, I don't know the real rpms) you get around 2 rpm, moving it to 50 percent you get say 300 rpm, moving it to 80 percent you get 500 rpm, then 90 percent gets 700 rpm, and finally 10 takes you to 1000 rpm. Takes some getting used to. And since I cut mostly at the fastest lap speeds, it's irritating as I'm adjusting the speed between 9 and 10 on the dial. It isn't that hard to create a linear speed control where 1=10%, 5=50% and 10=100% of the speed (I know, I'm a former electrical engineer. Wish I'd paid more attention at university so I could fix the controller).

The laps are held down with a right-handed screw. The screw goes into the top of the spindle that extends perhaps 1/4" above the surface of the platen. I cut mostly running clockwise, which means if you accidently touch the screw it comes loose. Even if you don't touch it but it either works loose or you didn't tighten it enough, it will come flying off and bounce around the lap. Irritating! Why they don't just use a threaded 1/2" post with a big nut or quickie-nut is beyond me. I ended up putting a 1/2" nylon plumbing washer on it to both allow better tightening grip and also so it would hold down an old 1/4" thick steel lap I have. Without the washers the screw was too long and wouldn't screw far enough to hold the lap down.

That spindle is a hair thinner than the 1/2" threaded spindle I used to have. This means my laps don't sit centered and unless I get lucky, they cause vibration (especially my heavy steel and Batt laps). This is really bad at higher speeds and certain speeds which hit the mast's resonant frequency.

The swivel arm for the most part is pretty good, except when the machine is vibrating due to the above problem. Then it slowly moves out or in depending how I'm cutting (usually out). This then affects the alignment of the stone to the lap (I'll elaborate more later). I wish there was a way to lock the swivel arm in position until you are ready to move it.

When the machine vibrates due to off-center laps, the machine can reach a resonant frequency where the head and mast begin to vibrate and sway to the point where the cutting angle changes due to mast flex. Mast flex in general seems to be an issue if you're heavy-handed, so use a light touch. It's a precision instrument after all. But the mast flex does rear up due to the vibration problem I'm having.

The transfer jig is sloppy. It's not overly precise and poorly designed, so if you're not paying attention, you can move the slidey part up and down and thus put your stone out of center on the new dop. I much preferred the MDR transfer jig and would appreciate any suggestions of others that will work with the Omni dops - they're 5/16" rather than the standard 1/4", so that makes things a little more difficult. And they have that keyed end.

The splash pan is too low and small in diameter for my tastes. It's more difficult that it should be to get a lap on and off the machine. If it were 1" larger in diameter it would make a huge difference. Also cost more too, but I'd pay for that.

Lastly, this one seems to be common to all faceting machines so take it for what it's worth: when cutting girdles the spray reaches the faceting head and everywhere else in the general vicinity of the girdle cut-out in the splash pan. I made a little plastic shield that I slip over the dop which helps but it's not perfect.

Quality and Service Experience
When I received the machine, the first thing that happened was I found the head to be very stiff when adjusting the angle. I mean REALLY stiff - so stiff it took two hands, one to hold the head and one to move the quill up and down. My first response from the manufacturer was that I was tightening the head too much or forcing it -- I wasn't. (the MDR had an incredibly easy to swivel head, and I don't believe that precision machinery should need huge force to adjust). I finally ended up having to ship it back to Jersey instruments to have it fixed (round trip of about 3 weeks and $20 shipping). No explanation other than when they opened it up and put it back together the problem was solved. Now the head swivels as I expect.

The second problem was that the 45 degree angle dop was out of alignment. It was roughly 2-1/2 index points off (96 index). After cutting two stones I realized it wasn't me and again had to send it off to get it fixed/replaced. This time it took several weeks (and $10 shipping), during which time I couldn't cut anything as I had no way to cut/polish the table.

And my current problem is two-fold: there is a hop in the platen, so when I put a lap down (ceramic, steel, steel-capped aluminum) there are high points. These high spots change in location on the lap when I rotate it on the platen. I used a dial guage on the lap and found over 1-1/2 thousands of up-down travel depending on where I spun the platen to. This causes unnecessary vibration and worries me as it's in essence acting like a mini jack-hammer on the quill and head. Not to mention being bad for the laps and stones.

The second problem I noticed when cutting long/large stones and step cuts is that as the head is swivelled across the lap the stone does not travel parallel to the lap - but it sweeps at an angle that changes, depending on how much the swing-arm is moved in or out. I took the head and mast assembly off the swing arm and rolled it on a granite counter-top -- the base of the mast is a brass bushing, and that bushing is not 90 degrees to the mast. These things made it very difficult to cut step cuts (long stones) or large stones.

I reported these problems to Jersey Instruments in an email, and was surprised to get a phone call back within a few hours (on a Sunday at that!). After a quick discussion I agreed to send the machine back to have it looked at. I didn't have all the original packing and packed it as best I could, which in hindsight wasn't the best job -- I forgot that it's in essence a 40 lb chunk of metal in a cardboard box, bounced around in trucks and warehouses for 2500 miles ($100 shipping). I also left it disassembled for easier packing.

Anyhow I'm not sure whether he misunderstood what I was talking about or what, but the reply was that a bearing was flooded at one time and replaced, and that the platen was within 0.05 degrees of horizontal. And that as the mast was disassembled they couldn't tell what the original condition was but it was restored to factory standards. And I was charged for the servicing and return shipping ($235). They enclosed the flooded bearing which does show signs of water. I suspect the water hit it when I was flushing the splash pan to get rid of all the rock dust prior to shipping it out...

Using it since then, I still have the platen hop issue. And the mast not being 90 degrees to the swivel arm, which means that the quill does not swing parallel to the lap but at an angle that changes depending on what position the swing arm is in. By rotating the mast I've managed to reduce it but it's still there, and makes it very difficult and irritating to do step cuts or larger stones.

I'm not going to bother trying to get this fixed again. The cost and bother of shipping the machine back is not worth it. I know what the problem is with the mast and will get it fixed at a machine shop locally for less than shipping the machine back.

The other problem of the laps not sitting centered I'm confident I can find a solution myself. I think it can be resolved with a small rubber gasket on the spindle which will center the laps but compress enough to be out of the way when the screw is tightened. The platen hop will take some more thinking and possibly another trip to the machine shop.

Final Thoughts
I've been waiting for more dops (different sizes, emerald dops) to be manufactured. So far I've been waiting for at least 3 months since I last inquired (I got the same response - they're coming soon). I'll probably get those made locally to my own specs. Being 5/16" instead of 1/4" means they're probably stronger, but at the same time it means you're stuck until Jersey Instruments gets going.

I've also been waiting for a 120 index (I like it for bigger stones). So far same response as the dops.

Overall I think the Omni is a reasonable machine. There are several improvements that can be made (I'm going to get a taller mast made, adding about 1" to the height so larger stones can be cut) but for the price it's fair. It's repeatable, it's precise, and if it's a concern, it's the most compact faceting machine you're going to find.

Quality-wise it's also fair. Not sure if I've had bad luck or what, but I'm mostly satisfied now that I know what I can count on the manufacturer for and what I need to do myself.

Would I buy one again? For this price - yes. If I had more money, I'd probably explore the Fac-ette as it's built like a tank and has a couple of interesting features. I haven't had a chance to work on an Ultratech but I'd work on that too before making a decision either way.

What it boils down to is that for this price I'm happy with what I got. If I had more money to burn I'd go and try the other machines out (at the local clubs) and then choose which one I like the best. Regardless of price. Availability of additional dops and indices would play a small role. Mostly I'd consider repeatability, construction and ease of use. I'm not sure what the service of the other companies is like but I'd assume I need to be self-sufficient to make minor adjustments and fixes myself.

I hope this helps. If you want pics of the machine or more details let me know.

-Al


Last edited by gembug on Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Thanks for that information
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:37 am 
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If you do end up finding a compatible transfer jig would you please let me know so I can get one too. Being a newbie it takes me alot more time to correct the problems after the transfer. I might be able to cut a stone in less than 10 hours. Any other upgrades that you make on your machine that would also make my life easier I would greatly appreciate. Thanks again for your response.

Justin


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:10 am 
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Al,
Thank you for taking the time to write about your experiences with the OMNI machine. I was curious about it as well, and I hope your experiences are not the norm. Yours is one of the best detailed postings I have seen lately on a faceting machine. Hope the alignment problems get worked out for you.

Jim


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:31 am 
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Seems like a lot of issues.

I started cutting on the Alpha Tourus. I had never cut a stone, nor seen one cut before. I had no instuctions at all.
Unboxed the machine, set it up, dopped my first piece of smokey quartz, and in about 8 hours had a halfway respectable stone. SRB. Cut a second SRB in about 6 hours that was pretty darn nice. I've since cut over a 1000 stones on this machine, have never made any adjustments to it, and have never had any issues with it other than the drive belt broke. Nick who designed and makes the machine sent me a new pully and belt at no charge, since he had made a design change to the style belt. The machine has worked perfectly since, and runs very quietly.

I think it sells for about the same price as the OMni and would take it in a second over the Omni if it were even double the price.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:26 am 
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Precision Gem wrote:
Seems like a lot of issues.

I started cutting on the Alpha Tourus. I had never cut a stone, nor seen one cut before. I had no instuctions at all.
Unboxed the machine, set it up, dopped my first piece of smokey quartz, and in about 8 hours had a halfway respectable stone. SRB. Cut a second SRB in about 6 hours that was pretty darn nice. I've since cut over a 1000 stones on this machine, have never made any adjustments to it, and have never had any issues with it other than the drive belt broke. Nick who designed and makes the machine sent me a new pully and belt at no charge, since he had made a design change to the style belt. The machine has worked perfectly since, and runs very quietly.

I think it sells for about the same price as the OMni and would take it in a second over the Omni if it were even double the price.



I agree. It does seem like a lot of problems. I would have probably demanded my money back for the amount spent compared to the number of problems. That's just me though. I don't have a lot of tolerance for buying something that doesn't work correctly due to mfg defects.

I almost bought an Alpha Taurus.. the only reason I didn't is because I was nervous about it being a 'one man show' (for the most part).. I instead bought the facetron.. which I am very happy with, however I think the improvements made to the taurus would be a nice features to have.. I have no regrets though because I ended up getting a concave unit for my facetron.. I have nothing but great things to say about Jarvi and their support..

Personally, I think the factron or taurus beats out the omnie easily. I've never had a problem getting dops, or index gears. The key system works very nicely, the transfer jig is great (one of the best out there I hear), etc. My only complaint is the splash bowl, but that's easily remedied with a 2 dollar bucket that has a lip on it and 10 minutes of cutting it up.. the reason people go with the omni is because of the digital readout and the price. Price I understand, but digital readout I don't.

Happy cutting either way!

Craig


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:09 pm 
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Al, thanks for the honest opnion do you have a newer OMNI or older, I wonder if some of the issues are worked out.
Thanks, Bob


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:16 pm 
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Bob - I have the latest version of the Omni-E. When I sent it back for repair I was told they installed 2 upgrades (no idea what they were). I suspect they were speed controller upgrades as I think the speed dial is a bit more linear now.

Like I said, I'm not sure if I just had bad luck or not. In the end it cuts stones better than before I sent it back, and though it's not perfect I'm satisfied with it.

-Al


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:28 am 
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Al, thanks for posting that review! I've been having a similiar problem with my OMNI with that right hand screw to hold the lap down. I resorted to running the lap counter clockwise so it doesn't come loose but cutting toward the back of the machine is very uncomfortable for long periods of time. Have you been using the nylon washer instead of the brass washer or do you use them together. I'll have to give it a try.

This is my first machine so I can't compare it to others but they are very responsive to problems you may have. I had to send mine back for a bearing problem as well and also made the mistake of not shipping it back correctly. This resulted is more damage they had to fix.

Sam

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:31 am 
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Hi All,

All this talk of having to ship these machines back and forward for repair sounds a bit scary to me (shipping from europe will cost a lot more and take a lot longer).

Are there outlets for these machines in Europe? alternatively are there any European manufacturers which make machines with good track records?

Thanks in advance

Frank


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:08 pm 
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Hi Frank,
I've been doing some research for European faceting machines, and found: with mast
link

and this

link

They are quite expensive compared to Us prices, but the factory should be in Germany. I have no idea on their quality, maybe if you speak german you could post a question on Mineralienatlas

without mast

link these people are based in my province, so if you need infos I could call them

and the raythech-shaw europan distibutor, UK based
link

hope to have helped a bit
ciao, Nadia


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:24 pm 
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Frank,

If you make it down to Paris sometime, in the 17th arrondissement on Avenue de Courcelles (not Blvd) there is a facetting machine dealer (the store says minerals outside though) who has been there for ages. His store is on the part of Ave de Courcelles between Blvd Courcelles and Ave Wagram on the side furthest from the Arc de Triomphe.

Wish I could remember the name of the place... but I'm getting old, and there are a lot of nice clothing stores on the other side of the street! :lol: Besides, he doesn't sell rough anymore which I why I went in in the first place, but he did have fliers for various facetting workshops in France.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:25 pm 
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Hello;
OK a few answers and my opnions... I do not carry or recommend the Alpha as well as some other machines because of the same supply issues that Rob K. mentioned. It's a serious problem with several manufactures, which Rob K. can attest too.

Also it has been my experience/opinion that the Alpha machines are made in very small numers by different shops (?). I do not know for sure... In any case there has been serious parts issues in the past, like they will not interchange between machines. On top of this no dealer support in my experience.

Some the the Alphas are fine and if you manage to get a good one you will like the machine, if not, well it is a real lemon in my opinion.

As a dealer besides I do not like they way Alpha does business and treats their dealers, I certainly do not want to deal with the problems.

As for OMNIe dops I have had the basic sets in stock and available for quite a few months now. Since about summer.

As for Tourmaline dops and other extra types, they are in the works, but it will probably be quite a while as I tell people if asked. They are simply so busy filling machine orders there is no time to get to the extras. I wish they would, but... I would not count on them any time soon.

As for 120 index gears the answer is and always has been that there probably will not be one. I have told that to the person metioning it here. The size of the gear just does not really allow for that many teeth. It is not in the plans to be made. Never say never but not likely.

As for the speed control yes that has been one of the many on going upgrades.

As for the screw in the laps. Two people have mentiond it and they are bother here. Several hundred owners have not. I do not know if it is a problem but will mention it to the factory again, (I just did last week when one of the people here wrote me). I also forwarded his email.

As for the transfer block, I have only heard of a couple people with a problem, I know that one of the people has tinkered with it several times. The best thing I can say is send it to the factoy to be fixed it is covered. If you tinker with it there is no way to tell what the problem was or even if there was a problem.

I am not trying to point any blame or anything, maybe there is a problem occasionally. But remember in many cases transfer issues are typical for any beginner and as a beginner they just do not know what they or the block maybe doing wrong.

I do like and suggest that beginners buy the GUIU girdle aligner made by UT. It will solve a lot of problems and I use it myself. Nice little tool.

http://www.faceters.com/equipment/faceting_acc.shtml

The OMNIe is a solid little machine and digital. Machining is similar or maybe slightly better than the Facetron in my opinion. So is design.

I think the digital and several other things make it a better buy than the Facetron. I also get dealers support from OMNI (and UT) which I do not from the Facetron people. Point in case is the Facetron being sold on eBay recently at below dealer cost or just at it... Way to support your dealers Facetron.

That is an opinion, I am sure some one will disagree. Some people of course got a real deal on the Facetron sold on eBay.

Both machines are solid and good priced starters for anyone wanting to get in the hobby ($2200 or so) and much better than the machines priced a few hundered lower.

Priced above? Well there is significant price jump $3380 for the UT and $3995.00 (I think) for the Facette. You do the math...

Are OMNE and Facetron like UT or Facette, no but they do not cost that much either. The best comparison I can give you is think Voltswagon vs. Cadilac. Both will get you there, it is just some refinements and style differences for the extra money.

Remember the stones do not care what machine you cut them on...

I try to make sure anyone that buys any machine from me gets what they pay for and I do work as I can with any of the manufacturers to get upgrades and/or fixes if needed. Remember the manufacturer has final say...

To do this people of course have to actually contact me or the manufacturer and tell me the problem. This does not always happen...

All manufactures have some probelms from time to time and I will point out that some times the problem is not the machines it is the guys tinkering with it. Trust me this is not uncommon on ANY machine.

Jeff
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:08 pm 
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Well, maybe I was lucky with my Alpha since it works perfectly, and I have never had a problem. WHen I bought it, a friend of mine bought one too, and he also has had no problems. Last year I got a lady up near Toronto into cutting, and she bought an Alpha. It took several weeks to get in, but has been happy with it. I cut on her machine and it works exactly like mine. So from seeing first hand 3 different machines, I can say from that sample size of 3, the quality and consistancy has been there on all three.

But I do prefer cutting on the Fac-ette.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:30 pm 
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Welcome Jeff btw.. and thanks for the link on that little girdle aligner... Love your designs as well(I bought all of them!) .. and look forward to your contributions here!

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 Post subject: OMNI user
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:48 am 
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Hello all;
Just back off vacation and was following this thread on the OMNI machine. Have been using mine for about a year and a half now and have no real complaints. I do wish I had a little more height adjustment (only an issue with large rough....40+ caret stuff) and once in a while moving the index will move your cheater slightly since the bar that secures the index wheel pivots on the cheater shaft. This may even be an adjustment that I have been too lazy (or busy) to figure out. I just became used to checking my cheater when I change index. I've reset the basic alignment 3 or 4 times since I've had the ONMI but never because of poor performance. I just did it to become more familiar with the machine. I have a small machine lathe and have run a few extra dops off w/o the index on the dop. I sort of prefer it to the indexed dops. If I have to remount a stone it can be real hard to realign the dop if it has the flat index. I'm not sure what a machine shop would charge you but if you order 10-20 your per item cost is bound to go down. I always work in brass now, I like the weight and it machines easily. Maybe a little harder to keep tolerances and a mess to clean up the lathe.
Anyway, I could go on and on but I think the main point here is that EVERY design has its weak points. Let me restate that: EVERY GOOD design has particular weak points. A poor design may break down any where in the design at anytime and never performs well. Good designs have the same weak points from machine to machine. In time these weak points and their solutions become common knowledge. We can fix them. I think someone like Gearloose could put it more accurately in technical terms but I hope you get the point.
Above all the artist himself is where the buck stops. Grab the best new machine you can afford and get to it. Take care all, bob

PS Jeff Gram has been taking a beat'in. I read the thread on the yellow tourmaline and was glad he weighed in there and here. I purchased my OMNI from him. I have bought a little of his rough. Main point is he has always followed through with any arraingement we have had. He has personally called me if there was a question about my order so things wouldn't get held up waiting for and email answer, etc. His rough costs are high like the quality of the rough I have received. Keep up the good work Jeff and thanks for all of your help.


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